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Hi technorachel - welcome to ThePOGG.com!

Having read your statement I would certainly support you in this issue. Terms and conditions have to be clearly available on the website to be relevant and the fact that the bonus was never actively involved in play makes the violation non-relevant. This is however assuming all the information contained within is accurate. I'd need to speak to Spin and Win before I could take an official position.

Before I can do anything further I need you to provide me with the email address and username you use at Spin and Win. It would also be useful if I could review any communication you've had with Spin and Win. If you could forward on any emails to webmaster@thepogg.com it would be appreciated.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi technorachel,

I've had time to review your correspondence with Spin and Win casino and it does make this case more difficult.

Spin in Win casino are correct in their assertation that you have violated term 9.18;

"9.18 Members that have a history of only or mainly playing during promotional hours will either not be considered for the bonus or, if they receive it unintentionally or otherwise, could have their bonuses denied, withheld or retracted even after conversion. Management reserves the right to prohibit or exclude certain individuals, groups or regions from the promotions and close the account with immediate effect."

Given that 11 of your 12 deposits over the history of your account have been associated with bonuses there is no question that you have a "history of only or mainly playing during promotional hours". In that respect you have broken casino terms.

This really makes the argument regarding whether or not roulette was a valid game for this promotion irrelevant. Even if it was you've still broken another rule that can be enforced to the same ends.

What is contestable is if the bonus was not present in your account during your roulette play. By the sounds of things, the Spin and Win system automatically removed the bonus from your account as soon as you entered a game that was restricted from the promotion. Assuming that your bonus was not present for the roulette play, it was your own funds at risk at all times and as such the roulette win cannot be contested under promotional rules. Given that you balance is entirely made up of your winnings on roulette this would seem a likely avenue of pursuit. 

I've contact Spin and Win and will let you know when I have further useful information.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi technorachel,

I'm afraid to say that my conversation with Spin and Win casino has come to an unsuccessful conclusion. Spin and Win have requested that I issue the following statement on their behalf;

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc"><p>"Upon an extensive review of the case, the member in question was in violation of the term within the invitational email stating that this offer was specifically for slots play. From time to time we email players with special offers or superior versions of what they see on site (i.e. an Xmas version of an existing promotion with bigger prizes) and only those that received the email were invited to participate in this particular one-off version of a regular promotion. Furthermore, the mailer contained the actual Promotion Code required so how the member neglected to see the terms remains unforeseen – either way, by entering the code, he effectively agreed to the terms in the mailer and we are firmly within our rights to deny or restrict the bonus and/ or any winnings generated by non-Slots play. The Spin and Win Casino Management Team"</p></blockquote>

There are two separate issue in this case as far as I'm concerned;

1) The status of Roulette with relation to this promotion and significantly was the bonus that was claimed playable when Roulette was played.

2) Where were the terms and conditions accessible.

To address issue one:

The terms that Roulette were only to be found on the promotional email that the player received. They did restrict Roulette. I'll discuss that issue in more depth shortly. If the bonus was in play, regardless of whether or not Roulette was restricted, technorachel has broken rules that would justify the voiding of her winnings, specifically 9.18 relating to player who only/mostly play during promotional periods. While the term is vague regarding what constitutes "mainly playing" with promotions, give that over 90% of the player's deposits are associated with bonuses it would be futile to argue that this player was not in violation.

However this is another aspect to this part of the complaint. The player clearly states that upon depositing they played Roulette but the bonus funds were not in their account (i.e. the system removed them when the player accessed a non-valid game). If the promotional funds were no usable on Roulette then it was only the player's money that was a risk and as such bonus rules cannot be applied to the play.

Spin and Win casino have refuted this claim stating that the bonus funds were in play. In an effort to resolve these conflicting accounts I took two actions:

a) Requested the players play logs for the period

b) Requested access to a dummy version of the bonus so I could test this for myself.

In the first instance the player's play logs were inconclusive. The files DO show a bonus present in the players account but this doesn't demonstrate it was actually playable in the Roulette game. As the player's balance never dropped below their initial deposit of £500, it's impossible to determine whether or not the bonus funds were accessible.

My second request was declined at the promotion had since been deactivated and the casino were reactivate a code that could result in other players misusing it.

As I can't determine the truth of this matter had this complaint only addressed whether or not the bonus funds were playable on Roulette I would have marked the complaint as 'Unresolved'.

My second concern revolved around where the terms and conditions for this promotion were available. Having been forwarded a copy of the relevant email from Spin and Win casino there are certain facts that are significant:

1) This email linked through to a generic (non-promotion specific) page on the Spin and Win website that provided no access to the promotional terms and conditions.

2) While the email itself does contain the relevant term excluding Roulette, this is not made particularly clear. In fact at first look I missed the terms and conditions for the promotion.

<img src="http://thepogg.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/spin-and-win-email-terms.jpg"></img>

The terms and conditions for the promotion were buried at the bottom of the email at the end of the licensing/security information, in one continuous text block. Given that most casino have a licensing/disclaimer paragraph at the end of their email, it's fairly common place to assume that this information is by and large irrelevant and not read it. It certainly isn't the first place I'd look for promotional terms and conditions. 

Taking account of the easily missed terms on the promotional email, it's entirely understandable that a player could end up missing the email terms and referring to the general terms and conditions on the Spin and Win website.  As such this fails to meet our standards that require relevant terms and conditions to be easily accessible to players - http://thepogg.com/casino-complaints-important-rulings/#Easily_Access_Terms.

I've tried to discuss this issue with Spin and Win, but they seem unwilling to make any changes to their policies. As such Spin and Win casino will be moved to 'Not Recommended' status.

I'm very disappointed with the way this turned out.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePogg,

Firstly, it looks like you have spent considerable time reviewing my dispute, so I must thank you for that.

I have a few comments which Spin and Win (SAW) have neglected to mention. I understand your conversations with them have reached a dead end so I may be wasting my breath, but I think it is important for all the facts to be available.

In SAW's response to you, they state that I must have read the email becuase the bonus code was included in the email. They have neglected to mention that the bonus code was also advertised under "My Account"/Cashier when I logged into the casino. When logged into the casino, when I clicked on the promotion code banner (FIFTY) it directed me to the Weekend Bonus Terms and Conditions. These are not the General Bonus Terms and Conditions for the website, these are the specific terms for the weekend bonus that I accepted. These Weekend Bonus Terms and Conditions state that Roulette is allowed, and do not mention that I should check my emails for any further terms.

It seems that the mistake SAW made on this occasion was to advertise the promotion under the "My Account"/Cashier page when I logged in, did not include in the advert that further terms applied that were sent via email, and linked the advert to their Weekend Bonus Terms and Conditions.

In fact if you look at the screenshot of the Weekend Bonus Terms and conditions I sent you, and as advertised on their website:

Term 2 - "The promotion runs from Saturday 00:00 GMT until Sunday 23:59 GMT every week". This states that the promotion is valid every weekend.

Term 3 - "Players will receive the bonus percentage that is advertised in our weekend newsletter and the cashier." I saw this promotion advertised in the cashier and played by the terms and conditions that were advertised in the cashier.

Term 11 - Roulette counts 20%.

There is nothing in these terms which states that further terms and conditions apply which will be sent via email, so I don't know how the player is meant to be aware that there are further terms.

Term 15 States - "Promotions are only valid to those who have received an invitation via email or text message." So I think this pretty much invalidates any attempt to withhold my winnings due to "only playing with a bonus". If I was invited to take part in a promotion then it is nothing short of entrapment to say I am unable to withdraw any winnings becuase I accepted their invite. This was not a promotion open to all players but I was personally invited. Prior to this win I was a large net loser at their casino.

The only remaining point is to verify whether my bonus balance was in play when I played roulette. It seems only SAW can prove this and they have chosen not to. I cannot see why they cannot enable the bonus code for 5 minutes for you to claim? Or assign it manually. On the other hand we would have no way of knowing whether the casino had tampered with the bonus code anyway. I don't think I have any screenshots saved on my computer of my win (I do take some screenshots of the bigger ones :), but I will have a look just to check. I think there is sufficient evidence in my favour from the past arguments I have made anyway.

As you have marked this dispute as found for the player, do you have any recommendations on how I should proceed to recover the winnings that are owed to me?

Thank You
technorachel

Hi technorachel,

Firstly, regarding the screenshots, the terms in question are not the general terms they are the Weekend promotion terms. This was NOT their weekend promotion. <strong>If</strong> they linked to those terms within the cashier that would be another issue that I'd have here, but they've stated that they did not.

I'm afraid I cannot agree with you regarding the playing only with promotions term. That IS in their general terms and conditions, the terms that you DID review. Reviews of play occur when a player withdraws, that's a standard practice across the industry. As such status changes to your eligibility for bonuses will only occur at those times. 

The fact that your account has been eligible to receive a bonus does not preclude your knowledge or acceptance of general terms and conditions. Furthermore, you've been in violation of that term for a long time, not just this bonus. Bonus after bonus you've claimed in violation of this term. 

I do NOT in any way accept that simply receiving an invitational email - one that's automatically sent to hundreds of players - immediately qualifies you for a promotion if accepting it would put you in violation of general terms and conditions.

If you wish to take this further - though I will say that I think it's highly unlikely that you'll have success doing so - you should contact Spin and Win's regulator in Alderney. You can find contact details for them here - http://thepogg.com/authority/gambling-control-commission/

ThePOGG

"If they linked to those terms within the cashier that would be another issue that I’d have here, but they’ve stated that they did not."

SAW did link to the Weekend Bonus Terms and Conditions from "My Account"/Cashier directly from the advert for the promotion FIFTY. If they have communicated otherwise they are either unaware of how their own website works, or they are lying. Unfortuately it is a "he said/she said" kind of situation.

It seems we differ on the definition of an invitation, so I will make no further comment on that other than:

If someone invites you personally (for example, the email from SAW stated) "This offer is only open to the intended recipient who received the invitation by email." That is a clear invitation to a specific player. I can't see how it is relevant how many players have been invited, or that SAW have been sloppy in their invitations and should not have invited me. This was not a promotion open to all players of SAW and it was their decision to invite me. Now to invite me to take part in this promotion implies I am eligible to accept their offer.

I have just forwarded on a screenshot of my account promotion history. Firstly, checking with my bank the last time I played at SAW was in 2012! Furthermore the screenshot does not show any previous promotions, it seems particularly difficult for a player to have to remember he took a bunch of bonuses in 2012 and the promotion history under my account does not show any past bonuses. I don't  remember term 9.18 (playing mainly with a bonus) being there in 2012 (it is fairly important) so I have only made one deposit when this rule was included, and at SAW's invitation.

This is the final post I will be making on this issue and no further posts reiterating the same argument that I've already address will receive publication.

The email in question is not a personal invitation, it's generic. It does have your name on it yes, as just about every marketing email you'll ever receive from any company where you've ever been a customer does. That does not make this a "personal" invitation. It makes it a mass marketed email designed to look a little more personal than simply stating "dear customer". See below;

<img src="http://thepogg.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/spin-and-win-name.jpg"></img>

No-one though "we better make sure technorachel's got their invite to this promo", this was an automated process. As already addressed your promotional status would only receive review upon cashout and while that may not be ideal for players, I'm not about to crucify one casino for a practice that's standard to all casinos. You slipped through the net long enough to receive an email that you would no longer technically have been entitled to, had that been the end of it I would have agreed with you, but as the terms and conditions specifically prohibited the behaviour you'd already engaged in and were engaged in during this promotion I can't.

Had a VIP manager personally had a conversation with you to get you to make a deposit that would have been a different story, but a generic promotional email doesn't count as a personal invitation.

Regardless, if you know the terms and conditions at the casino you're playing at then you would also know that accepting this bonus would have created a conflict in terms. If you were wondering if you'd be allowed you should have asked first. Only two possibilities remain regarding your failure to comply with this term;

1) You didn't read the terms and conditions fully and weren't aware of it. It is unquestionably the responsibility of the player to know the terms and conditions of the casinos they choose to engage with.

2) You did read the terms and conditions, were aware that the casino restricted players from receiving bonuses if they played "mainly" during promotional periods and decided to disregard it in the hope that this wouldn't become an issue. Had you contacted the casino, specifically asked about this and received a response that you were allowed to claim this bonus, that would again be a different matter but so far I've seen nothing to suggest you did this.

Either through intent or negligence you did violate the term and the idea that this term just shouldn't count because you received a promotional email doesn't fly. 

You were chancing your arm by playing near enough exclusively with promotions at a casino that carried a term specifically prohibiting this practice. My advice would be to take greater care in reviewing the terms and conditions at the casinos you play with in future.

ThePOGG

Spin and Win casino failed to make the terms and conditions for this promotion easily accessible and show no signs of policy change.

Hello,
 
 I have been reading through your website and complaints section and you seem to have some success in getting people paid when there is a disagreement with the casino. I will tell you about my situation and hope you can offer some advice.
 
 I signed up at Spin and Win casino in 2012, and have made a few deposits over the past couple of years, having a small withdrawal along the way but overall I was about 1,000 down.
 
 On 7th June 2014 I made a 500 deposit for a 50% bonus they were offering that weekend. When I logged into the casino there was a banner advertising the weekend reload, and when you clicked on the banner it took you to the promotions page which displayed the T&amp;Cs for the offer. The T&amp;Cs stated that the game roulette counted 20%. I have only played slots before but I thought I would give roulette a try for a change. When I opened the roulette game I had 500 in my balance instead of 750 which was my total balance. The bonus was not showing on my account. This did not trigger with me as an issue at the time so I played on with my 500 balance. I did quite a few spins and managed to get my balance up to 5,000 which was pretty good. I then played some slot machines and after a while the website said I could withdraw. My final balance was over 10,000.
 
 I put in a withdrawal for about 4,000. I then received an email from Spin and Win that you could not play roulette with a bonus. They sent me a link to the T&amp;Cs page. I looked again at the T&amp;Cs page and indeed it said roulette counted 20%, so I took a screenshot and highlighted the 20% roulette to them. In fact if you go to the terms page now it still shows that roulette counts 20%: https://www.spinandwin.com/promotions/weekend-bonus-2/;
 
 "11. All game play on slots and scratch cards count as 100% contribution towards the wager requirements. All game play on Table, Card, Video Poker and Roulette games count as 20% towards the wager requirements."
 
 Spin and Win replied that they also sent an email this weekend which included an extra term that only slots counted 100%. They stated that the terms that benefited them would prevail and that I would only be receiving my 500 deposit back. I have received my 500 deposit back.
 
 I do not think it is fair that the casino can have 2 conflicting sets of terms and conditions and can choose at their will which set of terms apply to their promotions. For the weekend bonus banner under my account when I logged in, only the terms on the website were advertised (where roulette counted 20%). I believe that the casino should honour my existing balance. It doesn't seem like there was a mistake in the T&amp;Cs advertised on their website as these terms are still being advertised to players. Regardless of which terms are applicable, when I loaded the roulette game my bonus was not available so I never played a bonus on roulette anyway.
 
 I have some emails from the casino which I can forward on to you if required, please let me know your email address.

Spin and Win - Dispute over which terms are applicable

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