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21 Dukes – Mega low withdrawal limits not in their terms and conditions

Ruling

Resolved - This is our longest every running complaint to date. 21Dukes has, after a grand total of 661 days, completed payment of this players balance.

While we view the player being paid as the most significant factor, taking two years to pay a low 5 figure balance is far from commendable and given the potential to slow the payments further that was suggested at the start of this conversation we'd advise all players to seriously consider what will happen if they win before playing with this group.

Read our 21Dukes Casino Review.

Player's Complaint

I have been playing here for some time and always like the offers and the software. I can honestly say customer service had been excellent too. Sometimes I had the better of the casino and sometimes they beat me. But I had a big win of nearly $30k a few months back and proceeded to withdraw the maximum 1000 per week. I am now a Bronze vip Member (the lowest rank) and their terms and conditions state:

7.7.4.1 VIP Bronze level MeAmbers have up to a $1,000 maximum weekly withdrawal limit;

After 2 or 3 months my withdrawals began drying up so I asked them about this. I was told my withdrawal limits are now set at $500 per month. Which means it will be nearly 5 years to receive my money. I was advised they tried to warn me about this by email, chat and phone. This is true, they did. But it would have made no difference because the advice would be for me to keep depositing and play "a lot","every day" in order to maintain a higher vip status which could mean larger withdrawals. With $25k still in my account I do not wish to deposit any further funds. They say the terms refer to the maximum I might be paid but not the minimum which they today said is $100 per month. If they put me on that limit it will be 25 years to get my money. I think it is entirely unfair that these limits are not in the terms and conditions. I entered into a deal where I thought $1000 per week would be the minimum. I had a very lengthy conversation with the manager today in the chat room and have a copy of the transcript.

My username is [EDIT]

Read the casino review

53 Responses

ThePOGG
May 13, 2014

Hi lh24,

While I absolutely agree with you that $100/week is absolutely unacceptable as a withdrawal limit for such a large balance, saying that this was not in the 21 Dukes terms and conditions isn't accurate. The term you quoted clearly states the word "maximum", so if you expected this as a minimum then that was your misinterpretation rather any lack of clarity within the 21 Dukes terms.

Unfortunately a few RTG groups are well known for this practice of quoting maximum withdrawal or VIP withdrawal limits rather than the limits that the average customer can expect to receive. I do consider this to be misleading.

Give me some time to speak to the reps at Revenue Giants and I'll see what I can do. It's absolutely unacceptable to pay at this unreasonable rate.

Thanks

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
May 14, 2014

Hi lh24,

I'm currently discussing the issue with 21 Dukes. I need you to provide me with a screen shot showing your withdrawal history. If you could send this to webmaster@thepogg.com I'd appreciate it.

It would also be useful to see the transcript of your conversation with the 21 Dukes casino manager.

I'll be clear about what I can and can't do here. I will discuss this issue and try to come to an arrangement where you are paid out at a reasonable rate. However this is likely to be slower than you (or me) would ideally like. I do not consider $100/month even vaguely acceptable, but it is likely to take at least 1-2 years to complete your full withdrawal.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
May 23, 2014

Hi lh24,

The situation is this; I'm speaking with Revenue Giants, the affiliate program for 21 Dukes. Some of this is irrelevant to you but I'm going to post if as information for other players when this complaintis finally published.

I have told Revenue Giants that I will support then in this issue as long as 21 Dukes continue to make payments at $500/month. Actually I'm not particularly happy with any casino taking 4 years to pay a player, but this is a far better situation that 2 decades to pay. There has to be some give and take in any negotiation. I have also told them that if payments drop below $500/month ALL venues represented by Revenue Giants will be moved to our Blacklist. My justification for this is simple; in a highly volitile market, the Revenue Giants properties occupy a space that caters to the US market. As the US government restricts transactions to or from online gambling companies, the practices they engage in to do this require finding ways to circumvent the system. Given that the US is stedily moving towards legitimate licensed online gambling, the companies that are catering to the US market with a license are likely to find themselves squeezed out of the market in the next 5-10 years. That being the case, setting up a payment schedule that will take 20 years almost certainly ensures that 21 Dukes will never pay you the full balance. I consider this policy a specific attempt to deny a player their legitimate winnings.

Revenue Giants have responded that they are an independent company (possible) and have no control over the terms and conditions that their casino partners enforce (possible) and as such the behaviour of one of their partner's should not reflect negatively on the others (i.e. they feel it would be fair to take action against 21 Dukes if I feel it necessary - though they disagree with that stance - but not against the other casinos they represent).

I can't agree with that. A quick glance shows that the terms and conditions on the 21 Dukes site are word for word the same as those on Casino Moons and Thebes casino. All 3 of these casinos use TopGame software, but if I look at TopGame casinos outside of this group, the terms are completely different. As such the only conclusion that can reasonably be drawn is that these 3 casinos share management. Unfortunately, like most online casinos, the ownership of the Revenue Giants casinos is not clear so it's impossible to determine from the information provided if only these 3 casinos are owned by the same people or if all Revenue Giant casinos are owned by the same people.

Add to this the fact that while the other properties do not have word for word the same terms and conditions, they do carry similar rules about withdrawals, certainly suggesting that the management, if different, are closely sharing notes.

As stated above and for the above reasons, I disagree that the Revenue Giant properties should be treated separately and should the payment levels drop below $500/month this will reflect on all casinos represented by this group.

I'm going to hold this complaint open until such time as payment of the full balance has been completed. As such I'll try and check in monthly to ensure that payments have been made. I would appreciate it if you could post in this thread whenever you receive payment.

Sorry I could not speed the payment any further, but I hope that my continued pressure on this group will ensure that things do not deteriorate.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jun 18, 2014

Hi lh24,

I'm checking in to see if this month's payment has come through?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jun 27, 2014

lh24 has confirmed receipt of €367 on the 23rd of June. The balance remaining to be paid is €24310

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jul 23, 2014

Hi lh24,

Today would be one month after you last received a payment, can you confirm receipt of this month's instalment?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jul 30, 2014

lh24 has confirmed receipt of a payment on the 24th of July presumably of the same size and as such the balance remaining to be paid is €23943.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Aug 22, 2014

Hi lh24,

I assume that you'll be receiving a further payment in the next few days. If you could confirm when you receive it and how much you receive I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Sep 01, 2014

Hi lh24,

Can you confirm receipt of a further payment?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Sep 24, 2014

Hi lh24,

Have you received any further payments?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Oct 01, 2014

For the record I want it noted that lh24 has forwarded on email communications demonstrating that 21 Dukes have declined to make the scheduled payment this month, instead issuing a "random" ID request. At the present time I'm not at all convinced that this ID request is related to genuine security concerns. It seems far more likely that this is a further stalling strategy in a payment schedule that's already vastly too long.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Oct 20, 2014

Hi lh24,

Can you confirm whether you've managed to complete the ID verification checks and whether you've received a further instalment?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Oct 29, 2014

Hi lh24,

Any further update on this issue?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Oct 31, 2014

lh24 has confirmed that 21 Dukes have accepted their ID again and their new payment date should be the 29th of each month.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Dec 01, 2014

Hi lh24,

Have you received Novembers payment from 21 Dukes?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Dec 05, 2014

Hi lh24,

I'm following up on the payment that was due at the end of November. Have you received it?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Dec 12, 2014

Hi lh24,

Following up again regarding November's payment - did it come through?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Dec 19, 2014

Hi lh24 - thanks for confirming receipt of payment on the 1st.

The balance still to be paid is €23443.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jan 05, 2015

Hi lh24,

Thanks for confirming receipt of €500 on the 30th of December.

The balance still to be paid is €22943.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Feb 04, 2015

Hi lh24,

Thanks for confirming that you've received a payment at the end of January.

The balance still to be paid is €22443.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Mar 02, 2015

Hi lh24,

Did you receive a payment at the end of February?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Mar 16, 2015

Hi lh24,

Did February's payment come through?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Mar 20, 2015

Hi lh24,

Thanks for confirming that you did not receive a payment in February. At this stage I personally feel this is unacceptable - they're already paying you out in tiny increments, if the multiple withdrawals were an issue one should have been cancelled and the other processed.

I'm going to take this back to 21Dukes now. I'll let you know when I hear back from them.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Mar 27, 2015

Hi lh24,

I've heard back from 21Dukes - they say that your February payment was sent successfully and ask that you re-check your account. That said they also state that no 'random security review' has ever been conducted on your account which we know isn't true.

If you could recheck your payment method and forward on a screenshot of the relevant time period if no payment has arrived that would be great.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Apr 10, 2015

Hi lh24,

I've heard back from 21Dukes - they're claiming that all appropriate payments have been sent at the correct times. I've asked them to provide payment dates for the last 6 months so that we can check.

They've also informed me that they've been trying to contact you via phone and email and would appreciate it if you'd contact their customer support. I can say that emails from this group generally go directly to my spam folder so you may have missed them.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Apr 17, 2015

Hi lh24,

Did you contact 21Dukes?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Apr 22, 2015

Hi lh24,

Thanks for letting me know that 21Dukes have agreed to move you to weekly payments. That's far more reasonable.

Can you confirm what the remaining balance to be paid is?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Apr 29, 2015

Hi lh24,

Thanks for confirming that the remaining balance is €21510. Have you received a payment yet?

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
May 01, 2015

Hi lh24,

Thanks for confirming you have now received a payment. The balance remaining to be paid is now €21010.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
May 06, 2015

lh24 has confirmed that they've received another payment.

The balance remaining to be paid is €20510.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
May 15, 2015

Hi lh24,

Have you received another payment?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
May 16, 2015

lh24 has confirmed that they've received another payment.

The balance remaining to be paid is €20010.

At the current rate I expect the full balance to have been paid by the 27th of February 2016.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
May 25, 2015

Hi lh24,

Have any further payments come through?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
May 27, 2015

lh24 has confirmed that another payment has been received. The balance remaining to be paid is €19510.

lh24 has also informed us that they will be on holiday and unable to make further withdrawals until their return on the 7th of June - thanks for letting us know!!!

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jun 15, 2015

Hi lh24,

Have you submitted any further withdrawal requests?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jun 15, 2015

Hi lh24,

Thanks for confirming that another payment has been received. The balance remaining to be paid is €19010.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jun 24, 2015

Hi lh24,

Have you received the next payment?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jul 06, 2015

Hi lh24,

Can you let me know if you've received another payment? Could you also confirm what the balance remaining to be paid is? I suspect I may have got out of sync over the last few weeks.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jul 06, 2015

Hi lh24,

Thanks for confirming that the payments are still coming through. The remaining balance to be paid is €15510.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jul 24, 2015

Hi lh24,

I'm looking for an update regarding payments and the current balance?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jul 28, 2015

lh24 has confirmed that they've been away briefly (and will be again next week) and have only made one further withdrawal which has been paid. The current balance pending is €15010.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Aug 17, 2015

Hi lh24,

Can you update - have further payments come through and what is the current pending balance?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Aug 17, 2015

lh24 has confirmed that payments continue to come through as agreed. Balance remaining to be paid is €13010.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Sep 04, 2015

Hey lh24,

Can you confirm that your payments are still coming through as agreed and what the current total balance is?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Oct 02, 2015

Hi lh24,

Could you give me an update on the current balance and payments coming through?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Oct 07, 2015

Hi lh24,

Thanks for confirming that the payments are still coming through and that the balance remaining to be paid is €9510 - we actually seem to be making progress now!

All the best,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Nov 06, 2015

Hi lh24,

Have you continued to receive funds from 21Dukes?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Dec 04, 2015

Hi lh24,

Can you confirm that payments are still being received and the current balance remaining to be paid?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Dec 07, 2015

lh24 has confirmed that payments are still being received and that there's approximately €5k left to be paid.

Thanks!

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jan 04, 2016

Hi lh24,

Just confirming our monthly check - are you still receiving your funds and how much is left to be paid?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jan 04, 2016

Hi lh24,

Thanks for confirming that there are still payments coming through and that there's €3510 left to go!

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Feb 11, 2016

Hi lh24,

Can you confirm that all due payments have come through since we last spoke?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Mar 02, 2016

Hi lh24,

I believe we should now be reaching the last few payments. Can you confirm receipt of balance?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

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