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Hi shereelim13 - welcome to ThePOGG.com!

As a UK citizen and as we are the officially appointed Alternative Dispute Resolution service for AllBritish Casino there is certain information we have to provide you now.

You can find all the relevant information about this service here – http://thepogg.com/terms-of-use/

To summarise.

– Use of this service does not preclude your seeking redress through court proceedings .

– This service is free to use for both the complainant and operator.

– At any point during the procedure the submitting party retains the right to withdraw their complaint. This does not preclude our right to continue the discussion with the involved operator of general issues related to the complaint (i.e. insufficiently clear terms and conditions).

– You are not obliged to obtain independent or legal advice or representation, though you may choose to do so.

The above is somewhat clunky but a necessary part of the process for any complaint that comes in under ADR procedures.

If you have any questions about the above, let me know.

Regarding the complaint - unfortunately you are right that there is no possibility of receiving winnings if you know you've broken the bonus terms and conditions. 

Having reviewed the AllBritish promotional system we can't support your claim for the return of the deposit either, at least not for the majority of your balance.

The bonus system at this operator functions with a separate deposit and bonus balance with the deposit being stacked on top. This would be considered standard practice within the online casino industry. To demonstrate below are 5 examples from other operators

CasinoLuck

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"8.8. The bonus is stated separately on the account. It can only be paid out once it has been transformed into real cash winnings. If an account contains both the player’s own money and bonus money, the bonus money will only be available for wagering once the existing money has been used. "</blockquote>


Guts

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"14. For any bet, placed bets are deducted from the player’s cash balance. If no cash balance is available then the bet placed is deducted from the player’s bonus balance." </blockquote>

Genting

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"Where you have:-
1. A bonus balance; and

2. Your own cash deposit on your online account

Then:-
1. For any bet you place, funds are deducted from your Cash Deposit Balance first;"</blockquote>

Unibet

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"The money deposited will automatically be used, up to the offer amount, before the bonus money."</blockquote>

Betsson

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"When you have real funds and bonus money in your balance your real funds will be used first."</blockquote>

The above were just a quick selection of highly rated and big competitors however having spent a great deal of time reviewing terms at a wide variety of operators I can say with confidence that it would be very unusual to come across an operator that uses the bonus funds first.

If the specific function of the bonus were different to standard industry practice you would have a case here, but given that using the deposited funds before the bonus funds is far and away the most commonly used system arguing that the lack of definition has in any way misled you would be spurious. In fact I couldn't bring to mind an example of an operator specifically defining that bonus funds are used first.

While this information would be better laid out within terms and conditions, it's absence doesn't lead to the conclusion that the opposite must be true and if this had been a concern at the time of accepting the bonus a quick communication with support would have cleared the issue up.

The unusual part of this bonus system - that being that you can play with your deposit without restriction and only have to adhere to the bonus restrictions if you actually use the bonus balance - is actually beneficial to the player.

The bonus system functions in a manner where while playing with your deposit there are no restrictions on withdrawals - the contract has not come into place. So while you were playing with your deposit, even though you were exceeding the betting limit that the bonus defines if you'd won you would have been free to withdraw without completing the wagering requirement. The contract restriction, and in essence the contract, do not come into place until the point where you start wagering with bonus funds. As such the deposit cannot be viewed as tied in with the bonus and resetting to the position that you were in when the contract became enforceable would be a bonus balance with no/very little deposit balance. 

The above being the case, at best you would only be entitled to the deposited balance that was wagered on the round that you crossed into bonus funds and as such engaged the bonus contract. To clarify I'll give an example:

Player A deposits £100 and receives £100 bonus. They play at £10/round and subsequently lose until they have a balance of £107. That would mean that they have £100 bonus and £7 deposit. On the next round they bet £10, meaning that they wager £3 bonus and £7 deposit. As the £10 bet exceeds the maximum allowed bet the player is now in a 'no-win' position. To reset the conditions to the point where the contract came into play would be to reset the balance to £7, the remaining deposited amount, not £100 as the £93 in losses were generated out with the enforcement of any bonus terms.

I'll be happy to ask that the operator provide your play history so that we can establish the exact point where the bonus contract came into force, but to do so I'll need you to provide your username and email address at AllBritish casino.

The only exception to the above would be if the maximum bet term was to be enforced on play that only involved deposited money, in which case the bonus contract and restrictions have been enforced from the moment of deposit meaning that the starting conditions would be a balance of £100 deposit. I doubt that's likely to be the case, but it is something I'll address with the operator.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

I accept the terms of ADR service.

With all due respect, posting examples of other operator terms and conditions, and stating that this is "standard practice" across the industry is irrelevant, as no player should have to be aware of "standard industry practice" or terms of other operators.

I never stated that I thought bonus funds were used first, I have stated that there was no distinction between bonus and cash funds in the terms, and that the bonus terms applied to the entire deposit and bonus starting balance. Term 21 states that the bet limit applies as as soon as the bonus is received, and the bonus was added to my account as soon as I deposited. Regardless of whether I was playing with cash or bonus, that term was active for my entire play session as I had received the bonus as soon as I had deposited. As such my entire play session should be voided and my deposit returned.

There is no term that states otherwise. There is the following text on their website:
"Difference between cash funds and bonus funds

Bonus funds awarded by All British Casino are not locked with a players’ deposit. When a player is wagering the received bonus the player will first play with their cash funds. This means a player is always able to withdrawal winnings as a result of playing with the cash funds. In this case, the bonus funds will be forfeit when a withdrawal request is started."

But this text does not form part of the terms and conditions (and therefore the contract) and is not enforceable.

Hi shereelim13,

I'm sorry you feel that way but I don't agree with you.

The contract comes into force at the point the bonus restrictions come into force. If you can point me to the url of the terms and conditions page you reference ("term 21") I'll be happy to review it for you. If the maximum bet limit is enforced on only deposit play then I agree you have a case. Otherwise you don't.

ThePOGG

http://www.allbritishcasino.com/bonus

It seems the casino have updated their terms, and the relevant term is now Term 20. As soon as I deposited the bonus formed part of my balance displayed when playing any game, and I had therefore "received" the bonus as soon as I had deposited.

The stated term is as follows:

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"When receiving a bonus the maximum allowed bet is £5 per spin until the wagering requirements have been met. In the event that bets of larger amounts have been made All British Casino reserves the right to forfeit the bonus and any winnings."</blockquote>

I'll check with AllBritish, but I don't agree with your interpretation of "receiving". The funds in your account are essentially psedo fund if no restrictions have been put in place. As long as you could bet what you want, play what you want and withdraw whenever you like the bonus can't be considered active as it has no impact on your results or activity. If the restrictions are in place at the point of deposit then you're absolutely right, but if none of the restrictions are in place until you wager with some bonus funds you accept/receive the bonus at the point where you first wager bonus funds and the restrictions come into place.

I still need your username and email address before I can contact the operator about this issue.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

With respect, it doesn't matter how All British interpret the term. What matters is the English language interpretation of the term (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/receive) I have received the bonus as it is displayed in my balance. "Industry standards" or "casino interpretation" cannot override the English language interpretation. On top of this, the casino is bound by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and if there is any ambiguity in the interpretation of a term or condition, the interpretation that favours the consumer will prevail.

There are no terms that state cash deposits are not held to bonus terms, and term 20 states your entire balance is held to these terms once the bonus is received.

Hi shereelim13,

I've now asked you to provide your user details twice. If you want us to manage your case provide them otherwise this is a wasted conversation. The case needs to be discussed with the operator to move forward at all.

As to our discussion - you're arguing linguistic technicality over effective reality and in my opinion the effective reality - that being that you were not constrained by any of the rules of the bonus and therefore did not effectively have a bonus until you placed your first wager with bonus funds - takes precedent over the technical definition that presumably (as I've yet to be able to contact the operator for clarification) doesn't conform to the system as it was actually implemented. If this was a situation where the system intrinsically disadvantaged players by being implemented in this fashion I would agree, but the reality is that this system actually benefits the majority of players it's only in a case where the player has failed to read the terms and conditions to begin with that they can interpret disadvantage. 

Further to this, the page that you've provided with the terms and conditions also explains - directly above the terms section - how the bonus works. This all ultimately boils down to a failure to properly read the information associated with the bonus.

I've explained our position and what we will do for you. It's now up to you whether you engage with the process.

Regards,

ThePOGG

Username: [EDIT].

I'm slightly puzzled as to your explanation of how a contract works. The literal interpretation of the terms is essential for all parties to understand the meaning of the contract. If the terms say one thing, but the operator wants a promotion to work in a different way ("effective reality"), then the terms should be rewritten to reflect reality.

To put this a different way, you can't write something in the terms, then say "oh but it doesn't work like that in practice".

I've already commented on the "how the bonus works" section, and I will repeat. It does not form part of the terms and is therefore not enforceable. It also contradicts the terms (which are enforceable).

The fact that we are debating the interpretation of these terms demonstrates that this is a botch job by the casino. They have written one thing and in practice are operating a different system. A player should not be in the business of second guessing what the casino meant to write in their terms.

I understand you will need to contact All British Casino to get their opinion, but I can tell you what they will say: "Our bonus system works like xyz".

The problem with this is the terms of the promotion do not reflect how their bonus system works. I would ask you to look at this issue through the eyes of a player, rather than the eyes of an expert in the industry who already knows how All British Casino works.

Hi shereelim13,

1) The literal interpretation would be applicable if a) you had actually misunderstood the system or b) it had disadvantaged you.

With regard to a) - I don't believe that the omission of this term led to you misunderstand the system. It works the same way as all other bonus systems in respect to the specific term. Putting that aside however - as you rightly point out the terms of other operators have little bearing on this issue other than to demonstrate normality - it is very unlikely that your behaviour or playing pattern would have changed even if this piece of information had been specifically included within the terms and conditions. The inclusion of this term would not have caused you to reduce your bet which is the fundamental crux of this issue. When considered that this information was available on the same page directly above the terms and conditions and that <stong>you failed to read the terms and conditions properly as it is it doesn't seem at all likely that the inclusion of this term would have made any difference to your predicament.

b) The majority of casino bonuses tie the player's deposit into the bonus terms from the moment of deposit. This system doesn't enforce restrictions until the point where the bonus is actually used. You're actually arguing for greater restrictions on your play where the lesser provide far greater benefit to players. It's only after the fact and having made other mistakes that this greater restriction would benefit you and the reality is that if enforced in this manner the restriction would benefit you and make the system poorer for all other players who are yet to play.

2) Looking through the eyes of players (plural) - looking through the eyes or players is exactly what I am doing in this instance. Players are benefited by this reduction in restrictions and by the way this system functions.. That's the truth. There is NO disadvantage to the player by not enforcing bonus terms until bonus funds are actually used. It's hard to reconcile a situation where the player is arguing for harsher restrictions to be placed on their play. It's not something that any player would ask for before playing. It's only after creating a negative situation where you'd broken other terms that this interpretation would benefit you.

3) You are right I fully expect the operator to explain that the bonus restrictions only come into force at the point where the bonus is used, however this isn't a foregone conclusion. If this isn't how their system is intended to function (i.e. they intend for the maximum bet term to be enforced from the point of deposit) the small incentive of keeping your deposit in this instance would be significantly outweighed by the precedent they set. In any future case where a player has exceeded the maximum allowed bet and wins with their deposited funds they would then be expected to pay out (as this case would have established that bonus restrictions do not apply until the point where the bonus is used). As ThePOGG.com is the ADR for AllBritish (and the other 7 venues in this group that all enforce exactly the same terms) any case where they refused to pay winnings out would be likely to come across our table at which point we would force the operator to pay. Interpreting the system to their benefit in this specific example (i.e. keeping your deposit) would carry the risk of having to repeatedly pay players who have significant wins when they never intended to. The upside short-term gain is massively out weighed by the long-term risk. As such it's far more likely that the operator will simply provide a direct and honest overview of how their system functions rather than tailoring the answer to the situation.

4) I do agree that the terms in this case could use some improvement and that's a recommendation I'll be making to the operator. What I don't accept is that the modifications that I'll recommend making in this instance would have made any difference to your specific situation.

Thanks for providing your user details. I'll contact the operator now and see what they have to say and revert to you when I have more information.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi shereelim13,

I've received a response from the operator which you can read below:


<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"We have looked into the matter below once more.
 
When bonus funds are awarded to an account like in this case a player uses their real funds first. Wagering before bonus funds are used do not fall under the restrictions that apply when bonus wagering is undertaken. Also before bonus funds are used, these winnings are credited in real cash. If a player wants to withdraw these winnings, this transaction would be processed as per usual, they only ‘penalty’ they will experience is that they will have to forfeit the bonus initially credited. Basically before bonus funds have been wagered, the player is wagering cash as if the bonus wasn’t even there. Which we believe benefits the player.
 
To clarify:
 
<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">So the question becomes are ANY bonus restrictions in place while the player is wagering only with their cash funds? This player has broken terms by betting more than is allowed with a BONUS. If they'd been betting the same amount but only ever used their DEPOSITED funds and they'd won, would they be paid that win?</blockquote>
 
Correct – The win would be paid
 
<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">If the above is right then obviously that supports AB in this instance. However we need to be 100% clear about this as this will set precedent for future issue, meaning that if a player over bets or plays a restricted game and has a significant win while ONLY PLAYING WITH THEIR DEPOSITED FUNDS there would be no grounds for not paying winnings.</blockquote>
 
Agreed - when they play only with their deposited funds they are not restricted to our bonus terms and conditions."</blockquote>

As can be seen above, the operator has confirmed that that no bonus restrictions come into place until such time as any part of the bonus funds have been used. This includes bet sizing, game restrictions and withdrawing. As such, in my opinion the bonus contract cannot be deemed to have been initiated until such time as the first wager with bonus funds occur. Until that point the 'bonus funds' displayed within the account are essentially a phantom - they have no practical impact on any aspect of the player's activities and simply represent the bonus that could be engaged as and when the player wants/needs it.

I've requested that the operator provide a copy of your play history so I can establish at what point the bonus funds were first used.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

This really is a worrying development. It appears you had already made up your mind on this dispute from my first post. You have not acknowledged any of the arguments I have made, and have confirmed that you are dismissing:
1) The English language interpretation of the word receive would prevail in this contract, as the word receive has not been defined otherwise
2) Any text on the website outside of the terms and conditions is irrelevant

What you have done here is ask the casino how the terms should be interpreted. There should be no interpretation required if the terms are clear. To form a fair opinion on the dispute, the terms should have been interpreted by yourself, using the English language, not your experience of "how bonuses usually work in the industry" or how the casino tells you the term should be interpreted.

Your reasoning is flawed, and as it stands any decision made will be flawed.

I'm not just offering problems here, I think there is a solution. I would be happy to arrange a third party expert (legal) opinion on the terms and conditions I have entered into with All British. This should resolve any dispute over interpretation of the term. The other alternative would be to decline to mediate the dispute as there is insufficient expertise in the area of dispute. I would be happy with either outcome.

I'm sorry you feel that way shereelim13 but the decision stands. I've already provided ample justification for the position taken and counter point to each of the issues you've raised, that you don't agree with our position doesn't make it wrong.

Feel free to forward your issue to the UKGC for review if you feel our position has been unfair. We'll be happy to discuss the issue fully with them. 

ThePOGG.

The player&#039;s argument that deposited and bonus funds are used simultaneously is contradicted by information available on site.

I played at All British Casino with a bonus. I bet over the bet limit that was listed in their terms. I'm not challenging the voiding of my winnings, I should have read the terms more carefully. I understand I bet over the limit, but I do object to them keeping my deposit too. Their terms and conditions do not state that your cash balance is used first, when playing at the casino you only have a single balance that consists of your deposit and bonus. The terms and conditions do not state your cash is used first in the terms, so I can't see how they can try and use that excuse of cash vs bonus. They do mention that cash is used first elsewhere on the website, but not in the terms, the other text is not binding.
 
 I sent the following email to their support to argue my point:
 
 --------------------
 
 Hi [EDIT],
 
 I have an account at All British Casino. My username is xxxxxx. I have an ongoing complaint, and your support team have made their position final. I have therefore been forced to look elsewhere on the internet for help and found the casinomeister forum where you are a member.
 
 I recently deposited for a bonus you sent via email. I managed to complete the wager requirement for the bonus, but I broke your bet limit as it has recently been reduced from 10% of bonus to a fixed £5. I understand you have to void my winnings but I do not think it is right that you have kept my deposit as well.
 
 Support have quoted the following "Clause 21" term to me: "When receiving a bonus the maximum allowed bet is £5 per spin until the wagering requirements have been met. In the event that bets of larger amounts have been made All British Casino reserves the right to forfeit the bonus and any winnings."
 
 This term makes no reference to my deposit.
 
 On top of this, I am a UK registered customer, and you are a UK regulated casino, bound by UK Law. In UK law, if you rescind a contract, then we are supposed to be restored to the positions we were in as if the contract was never made - that is, just before the point I received the bonus. This would leave my deposit in my account.
 
 To resolve this complaint I would like you reinstate my deposit to my account.
 
 Thanks
 [EDIT] 
 
 --------------------
 
 I think a fair outcome would be to cancel all bets placed on my account with this bonus and return my deposit.  I have posted about my issue on the Casinomeister website but they are not a recognised ADR for All British Casino so I have come to ThePOGG website.
 
 Thank You

All British - Deposit witheld

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