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Hi jaytam1234 - welcome back!

I'll contact the operator and see what we can find out for you.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Thank you. [EDIT] actually sent me an email this morning. Which [EDIT] told me was not possible. Let me just say this, i do not believe the casino is doing anything shady or unjust. I am being told i misinterpreted the email, even though i was aided in my interpretation for 4 months with livechat checks on my accounts. Big deposits and big withdrawals which all went through account checks. Loyalty bonus, free spins and I never did anything to takenadvantage of the casino in my years playing there. All i did was give my money. On our resolution I lost about 4000 from the point i asked for my account to be closed, and they offered me less than that but i took it in good faith that i was just overlooked and that was not in my favor. I dont understand how all of a sudden they just can not pay after alot of account checks, and way more money lost than won. This type of tc is usually automatically in favor of the casino because someone was trying to cheat, but i took full responsibility of my losses, i would like them to take some responsibility for aiding my interpretation. That is all. I still believe they are reputable regardless, and have always treated me with respect. I already know how this is going to go but thats all i got to say

I do find it wrong that after 4 months of deposits and withdrawals, so many deposits and speaking with chat, loyalty emails from [EDIT], free spins sent to me, that my interpretation of the email was wrong. I stood by that and never lashed out over my losses. Its hard to believe that they think they dont have fault in this and wont come to an agreement.  That TC is usually for people who try to cheat with welcome bonuses etc and gain an advantage, not people who played fairly and loyally.

Like I get it, you say I read that wrong. But for 4 months I believed I was correct and the casinos actions led me to believe that. You have to take some responsibility in that but thats not how these situations go

Might I also add that they do have IP recognition in place, as welcome and free spins on signup were not offered ( even though i wouldnt use them) also believing to me I thought I was correct, i never abused deposit bonuses and played straightup, i have read past complaints about people with multiple accounts and they werent paid either because they abused bonuses or had multiple active accounts at once trying to cheat the system, but i played straight up

I mean a few weeks before this I had asked the support team about being VIP because of how much money I had been depositing and they told me to keep playing

Hi jaytam1234,

Firstly apologies for the delayed response to this issue. Bitstarz have strung this out far beyond what we consider to be reasonable.

Sadly, while we would support your claim the operator has refused to change their position.

The operator's position is that because they informed you that they would not be held responsible for any further losses you incurred, due to your previous self-exclusion, that they had been clear that you were not allowed to play with them again. We do not agree with this position at all.

In the first instance, Bitstarz have told a person with gambling problems that they won't refund further losses if they play again rather than telling them that they are not allowed to play with them ever again. This was a needless ambiguity that if not intentional demonstrates poor understanding of how self-exclusions should be managed. More significantly however, the operator has stated that they will not be held accounted for further losses, but they are not being asked to refund losses. They are however refusing to pay a win. This is a totally different thing.

Add to this that Bitstarz have had multiple opportunities to prevent this issue ever having arisen and in our opinion this does not paint a positive picture of the practices being employed by Bitstarz.

In the first instance as a US player you should never have been allowed to play on your first account, never mind your second account as Bitstarz claim that the USA is a restricted country. However Bitstarz take no reasonable step to prevent US players from engaging with their service. No information is required by the operator with regard to the player's residency before allowing them to play. Bitstarz feel that because they mention in their terms and conditions that US players are restricted, that this absolves them of any and all guilt or responsibility when they accept play from US citizens. 

The facts of the matter are that Bitstarz do not request any information from the player regarding their residence either at point of registration or before deposit.The vast majority of players do not read through the terms and conditions before they register. Fact. They rely on the operator to put in place a barrier to their play if the operator would not accept them.

The argument that has been made historically for not requesting residence information has been that it would disrupt the registration flow and result in reduced conversion. We do not accept this. Having a drop down field on the registration form where the user selects their country of residence is so minimal in its disruptive impact that it likely would have no practical implications whatsoever for conversion. Beyond this, every well run operator already requires far more information at point of registration.

In our opinion Bitstarz are making a conscious decision not to request residency information for a clear reason - by not requesting this information players they allow players from restricted jurisdictions to play as long as they are profitable to the casino while claiming that they're not accepting players from these black markets.

Bitstarz argue that US players will be identified at point of withdrawal when ID verification occurs. This is a problematic policy in two respects:

i) It means that the operator will only ever identify restricted play where the player wins. As the vast majority of players never win (i.e. they lose their deposit/s to the casino and move on) this conveniently allows the operator to retain these losses while claiming ignorance. When the player does win the operator can then point out that the player has breached rules and refuse to pay. This creates a no-lose situation for Bitstarz. If the player loses they win. If the player wins they refuse payment.

Bitstarz have asserted that they would not do this and will pay out wins in this circumstance. Even where this was to be the operator's policy this would still allow the operator to profit from large volumes of US play from those players who don't win. However, historically our experience has been that this has not been the case anyway. A previous case exemplified Bitstarz trying to void a win because a player was located in a restricted jurisdiction (USA) - https://thepogg.com/complaint/bitstarz-freerolls-us-player/. So there are questions to be asked as to whether Bitstarz are genuinely paying out US winners when they are identified or whether they are only doing this when they get challenged on the matter by a 3rd party.

ii) If we take the operator's word for it that they will pay out winning US players and ignore the likely significant financial benefit they are deriving from players who are from restricted countries and never win, we would still have to rely on ID verification occurring at an appropriate juncture. Your claim demonstrates that this is not happening. You have been allowed to process tens of thousands in deposits and withdrawals without having been asked to verify your identity or residency. Not only does this demonstrate verification policies that are entirely insufficient in terms of preventing money laundering and funding of terrorism, where the operator is claiming that they will catch players from restricted jurisdictions at point of verification and then engages policies that make no reasonable effort to verify players this again facilitates the operator in accepting as much play as possible from jurisdictions that they claim are restricted.

In short we feel that Bitstarz are being entirely disingenuous in the representation of their actions. They are wilfully engaging policies intended to maximise rather than minimise the volumes of play they receive from prohibited jurisdictions while at the same time using the fig leaf of mentioning the jurisdiction as restricted in their terms of use to make the claim that they are not doing this.

And this is further supported by the approach that has been taken to the management of your account. Rather than telling you that you were no longer welcome to play they told you that they would not be held accountable for losses. They then accepted a second account, allowed large volumes of play and only raise this as an issue where you won, refusing to pay out winnings. This is flatly predatory behaviour and not something that we could support.

Sorry we could not be of more help.

ThePOGG

Well I highly appreciate your view on this. It means alot honestly, as Ive found a better space in my life away from gambling, I have talked to Nick recently, and probably what finally made him respond. He told me I need to hold myself accountable, which I did by losing way more than that $2500 and never mentioning anything.   when I begged to be selfexcluded last time, they refused and  i proceeded to lose over $6000 and offered me $1500 in return which I was desperate at that point and then all this happened. I did find that there were alot of reputable casinos that did prevent me from signing up also managed by Direx, so I know there are some good ones out there. I did in the emails tell him I want him to be held accountable for their actions and just wanted them to put in place a way to stop people from just resigning up, but its not their responsibility, im paraphrasing that.  I have begun making a documentary about the good and bad of online gaming because their is alot of good, including people like you trying to help out this growing community. You do alot for people that lets them have an opportunity to have fun. Also, you do alot for the people who are struggling. As much as getting paid my winnings would get me and my family back on my feet, i hope people read this and choose a site that has integrity. I appreciate your honest look at this.   Oh And they have never asked for verifications on any withdrawal, and on cashout screen it shows exactly what country you are logging in from, but they also allow vpns to play games not in your jurisdiction as well. You would think a site someone has lost tens of thousands of  dollars at, they would have a little more integrity.   

Once again though, I appreciate your help and your support. It is very much appreciated.

After rereading your response again, you worded everything I was trying to say so much more clear. I appreciate the effort that went in to your response.

In our opinion Bitstarz are implementing policies intended to facilitate them accepting illegal US traffic while claiming that they do not.

Hi there, we had resolved a complaint with bitstarz due to selfexclusion here before. At that time I had received an email that stated if i continued to play, i would not be refunded and casino will not be held liable for my losses. ( the email is in the livechat transcripts and i can forward it to you) so i agree and i have played there for 4 Months with hundreds of deposits and withdrawals. One day i had won 4000 and had no problem withdrawing. I still have lost more than i won ( again i agreed to it taken responsibility). I had talked to chat support several times over my months playing there. Once last week even talked about how to join vip since i deposit so much and they told me to keep playing and if i play enough they will contact me. I have received loyalty bonuses, free spins, and special offers in my emails. They have obviously looked at my account before. Well today I won 2500 and hit cashout and my account was closed and refunded my deposit. I tried having a chat, showed the email i was sent after case resolved previously ( which wasnt first account there but once again agreed as long as other accounts were closed per my request, which last ones were, new account is fine) It is more of an ethical thing, now they want me to believe after 4 months and 10s of thousands of dollars in and out, that now it is a problem, and conveniently took my biggest win of over 2000x. Like i said i have cashed out more than this in a day even though i always ended up giving it back but after i showed him the email, he conveniently chose to look at his way and not how it looks to the player ( might be on purpose). 4 months of taken responsibility for losses, and i thought an agreement to be responsible for my losses, including receiving emails from [EDIT] for my loyalty bonuses, special offers, and freespins, and speaking to chat teams several times who have had to look at my account. I just believe it to be unethical, as i honored my word not to hold them liable for my losses, i wish they would hold up to their end of it. Thank you for your time. Please update me on how to email you attachments , Live
 Chats, screen shots of deposits and withdrawals since february, conversations with support, emails from [EDIT], and the past email stating if i continue to play they wont be liable. Thank you for your time

Bitstarz - 2500 euro win

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