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Moore Games - slow pay missing balance

Ruling

Moore Games have been added to our Blacklist. After a series of very worrying complaints - at least one of which they were shown to have retroactively changed the rules to justify confiscating a player's winnings - they appear to have closed, disappearing and taking all player funds with them.

Read our Moore Games Review.

Player's Complaint

The casino promised to pay 1000 each month, I won around 9000 EUR, they paid half and then stopped paying. The last email came from them they said wait, since then no reply and no payment, they simply stopped paying.

I tried Gambling Grumbles for help but they didn't even reply Steve Russo from Gambling Grumbles

http://www.gamblinggrumbles.com/Reports/Moore-Games_Some-monthly-payments-then-nothing

I won in September 2012 9000 EUR, it took over 40 emails to be paid the half they did pay.

This last email came 21 of February, no payment arrived since January

Hi T

We confirm your withdrawal request and we will soon approve it.

Please be patient until all standard procedures are followed!

Regards,

Christian

Read the casino review

21 Responses

User icon
ThePOGG
March 30, 2013

Hi tahir91,

Thanks for getting in touch.

Firstly - could you provide your username and the email address you used when you signed up to Moore Games? Once we have these we'll contact Moore Games.

What payment method are you using? Can you provide screen shots of the previous payments? Could you provide screen shots of your Moore Games account, showing the pending withdrawals?

These details would be a huge help in resolving this issue.

ThePOGG

User icon
tahir91
March 31, 2013

User name in MooreGames ******* email ***********@gmail.com Method used NETeller, here is the email they sent including date that there is a pending cashout (1000 EUR) and that they are going to process it soon

Finance Moore Games

Feb 21

to me

Hi Tahit,

We confirm your withdrawal request and we will soon approve it.

Please be patient until all standard procedures are followed!

Regards,

C

From: Tahir Bhatt [mailto:**********@gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 05:55

User icon
ThePOGG
March 31, 2013

Thanks for getting back to me tahir91.

I've contacted Moore Games to alert them to your complaint and our involvement. Hopefully we will hear something from them soon.

Having had a look at the Moore Games terms and conditions, I see that they allow a maximum withdrawal of 10x the deposit that initiated the win per month. That being the case, I assume that the €1000/month payments were set due to a €100 deposit?

Could you confirm the date of the last payment you received? Can you confirm that you've received a payment for October, November, December and January, totaling €4000 and the so far Moore Games have not made payments for February or March?

ThePOGG

User icon
tahir91
March 31, 2013

Thank you, the 10 times max cashout is only referred to the first cashout, so yes, they processed only 1000 as a first cashout and they told me about this rule, then after processing 1000 they promised to pay 1000 each month. I can see they processed 5 payments of 1000 since September at different dates so they did pay for SEP OCT NOV DEC JAN (Last Payment)

They stopped paying January means they owe for February and March

The total left is 4000 EUR they need to pay

Yes the deposit was of 100 EUR

The last payment of 1000 came 15/01/2013

Thanks again

User icon
ThePOGG
April 6, 2013

I can confirm that Moore Games has responded to our contact, has log in details to access this complaint, but as far as I'm aware has not yet looked into this issue.

I expect further communication on this issue early next week.

ThePOGG

User icon
ThePOGG
April 12, 2013

Hi tahir91,

I do now have an explanation from Moore Games regarding the delayed payments - which was due to the necessity of requiring additional identification for security reasons. They inform me that you met said requirements and are now free to withdraw, however they've also indicated that due to further play you no longer have funds to withdraw - is that accurate?

Thanks

ThePOGG

User icon
tahir91
April 13, 2013

This casino is committing fraud, it is shoting fraud fraud fraud. Why would I play in a casino that wouldn't pay even my old winnings, I didn't touch any of their game. It is not the first time they lie, and they suse the same lie before. Moreover, the account is closed so I was not even able to see what they did with the over 4000 balance I had in the account, they liwed the same lie as they lied before and lied to you also in the face, the account is closed and not verified as they say.

This is not the first time they use the exact same trick - closing the account to save time and give more of their BS.

Couple of months ago I tried to login to cashout and the account was closed, I emailed them and they gave the exact answer, only after I sent them picture of myself holding the ID they opened the account, now they are closing the account again and tell you I played the balance, what a shame, shame no them

Here is the email they sent before with the exact same excuse

Just to clear the things, they closed the account couple of months after it passed their security when full documents had been sent.

this one was sent 24th of December

Our latest e-mail was not sent by mistake; we need to re-check your account, as the previous documents are old.

In order for us to process your cashout, you need to send us new scanned copies (other copies) of your ID card, bank statement or utility bill and a screenshot with your Neteller account showing your details (which of course should match your player details).

This is a standard procedure and we are kindly asking you to comply.

12/24/12

It is not even the second time they are using this trick, this trick is being used for the third time

There are over 40 emails and I couldnt find the other one, but it is clear as the sky here that this casino is just lying to everybody

Here is the first Email I think they sent confirming documents were approved

Moore Games [email protected] via tain.com

9/19/12

to me

Dear tahir91,

Thank you for submitting the requested details to us. These have been verified and approved.

Your cooperation on this matter was much appreciated.

If you have any questions, please contact us at [email protected]

mooregames support

User icon
ThePOGG
April 13, 2013

To be clear tahir91 - you are saying that without question you have not played any games or wagered any money with Moore Games while this mediation process has been ongoing?

While I appreciate you had to re-verify your identity in December, this was prior to the delayed payments (which were in Feb/March) and re-verification may have been required again in the mean time due to the activity on your account (logging in etc).

You are stating unequivocally that you have not played at all on your account since the 30th of March?

ThePOGG

User icon
tahir91
April 14, 2013

Hello

Yes this is correct, I didn' t play even a penny not in april not in march not in feb, I had over 4000 EUR in the balance waiting for withdrawal and now they closed the account.

The lied to you about the fact I played the money, they lied to you I passed now verification because the account is closed.

They lied about the email they sent, yes you have a pending cashout we can see it and will process it soon.

They gave me hard time and over 40 emails maybe even over 50 saying yes do that and do this.

I sent them 2 IDs, picture holding ID, bills, bank statements...

People should know this place is committing fraud.

I have been waiting for months to be paid, why would I play the money, does it make any sense I submit a complaint at gambling grumbles (they are blacklisted there ) and then submit a complaint here and all of a sudden they close the account and say I played the money, what a shame.

They also confirm in the email there is a pending cashout, did you see the email they confirmed it was the last 1000 cashout I made, did they process it ? of course not.

Forgive me but this is just too much

Thanks again

tahir91

User icon
ThePOGG
April 14, 2013

Hi tahir91,

I do understand your frustration and ask you to please bare with me while I try to establish what is going on here.

What I need you to do is try and log into your account right now and copy and paste the exact message you are receiving telling you the account is closed to this thread. The message has to be exactly the same message that is displayed.

Once you've done that I'll hopefully be able to move this forward.

ThePOGG

User icon
tahir91
April 14, 2013

It shows a message wrong user name and password, last time when they closed the account it was the same, I got this message emailed them and they asked me to try again and it worked, when they close the account it works like that it will tell you login info is wrong although I use the correct info

I can attach a screenshot of that page, should I do it by email ? as here I dont see a way to attach a file only to leave a comment to which email should I send the screenshot

User icon
tahir91
April 19, 2013

Hello

I have some updates. I managed to create a new password using the forgot password in website and login. I was wrong to think the account is closed.

I logged in to the account and the balance shows zero.

It never happened to me such a thing and I couldn't find online that any casino used this trick but I didn't play the money.

There was 4004 there and since the complaint I didn't touch any game.

I am sure it is possible to demand the log files, but what if a casino employee lost the money in purpose, even for a software provider need an investigation..

I have attached a screenshot showing the account history as it is being shown now.(the screenshot was sent by email)

User icon
ThePOGG
April 23, 2013

Hi tahir91,

In the last few days I have been communicating with Moore Games regarding this issue. They have furnished me with the complete game logs for your account which do indeed show the €4004 loss through play.

At this stage it becomes impossible for me to establish any evidence to support your claims that the casino have accessed your account and lost funds for you. The casino have provided records showing the loss of funds and have provided sufficient justification for the original delay in payment. I can neither substantiate nor disprove your claim that you never played any games since the opening of this complaint.

I'm going to mark this case as 'Found for the Casino' and the justification is simple. When you claimed that your account had been closed for the duration of this investigation and that you had no access I asked you to substantiate this by providing a screen shot of the message you were shown when you tried to log in. This is shown below;

The message displayed I can confirm from my own testing is the same message that is displayed when a wrong password is entered and obviously insufficient to prove that you did not have access to your account.

As such I asked you to generate a video showing you using the 'Forgot Password' link and the right click 'Copy' and 'Paste' functions to change your password to something that I knew and could confirm was identical to what you entered in the password field when you tried to log in. Several days later you got in contact to inform me that your account in fact was not locked and when you changed your password you could gain access to the account, though the balance was still missing.

This is where the issue exists - I find it very difficult to believe that you both forgot a password that you had been using for months and did not think to try and reset the password until I suggested it.

Of course the argument could be made to coincide with your claims that someone at Moore Games lost your funds intentionally that they also changed your password, however I can't see any logical reason for someone to change your password yet leave you free to reset it. There was no information within your account that could be used to validate your claim and as such, why would they not want you to have access to your account? And why change your password when you could easily reset it within a couple of clicks?

By Ockham's Razor the explanation with the least assumptions is the one that should be accepted and as such that would be that you lost the funds during play rather than that Moore Games firstly accessed your account, played and lost the funds intentionally and then changed your password so you couldn't not access your account, but left you free to reset your password. The first explanation has far less assumptions and seems far more credible.

The bottom line is that with one of the two claims you made having been shown to be incorrect, it leaves me with little option other than to give your second claim less credence.

Obviously I cannot state with any authority that your claim is not true, only that at this point given the evidence I have been provided, it seems unlikely.

To prove or disprove your claims would require access to information that this investigation would not be able to gain. As you correctly state, it would require an investigation by either the software provider or Moore Games regulator or perhaps both.

As such, if you wish to pursue this issue further I'll provide contact details for these organizations below;

Tain software - hxxp://www.tain.com/contact-us/ (replace 'xx' with 'tt')

Curacao EGaming - hxxp://www.curacao-egaming.com/

Email – [email protected]

Telephone – +5999 465 1134

Fax – +5999 465 1136

Address – Curaçao eGaming

Pletterijweg Oost

Ara Hilltop Building

Curaçao

I'm sorry to say that there is nothing further that I'll be able to do for you, but would encourage you to take this to Moore Games regulator and software provider if what you have told us is true. If you do go down that road, please keep us informed of the outcome.

ThePOGG

User icon
tahir91
April 25, 2013

Mooregames is lying to you, and not judging against them will just show them crime benefits to them.

I have been in process of cashing out for 7 months. 7 months I haven't played that money and all of a sudden in 1 week of complaint I played the money , it makes no sense.

Have you ever heard about a complaint that a player lost the money at the process of complaint, I checked casinomeister, askgamblers... I couldnt find even one.

And one more proof, I have a proof that can show you they are lying.

I sent you an email they confirm there was a pending cashout, it is in the original complaint, they sent an email yes you have a pending cashout and it will be processed soon.

I also sent you a screenshot of the transaction history.

If they claim I lost all the money, you should have seen in the transaction history a reversal back to balance of 1000, but it is not there, it is not there because it never happened.

I am also not sure, now I can't check that it is possible to reverse a balance in mooregames when it is in the pending period.

This people are lying to you

User icon
tahir91
April 25, 2013

I sent the screenshot of the transaction histlory as it is showed inside the casino account, I never received a reply, did you see this screenshot, this screenshot have the transactions but misses any attempt or note of funds that were reversedback to account, did you receive the email with the screenshot ?

User icon
ThePOGG
April 25, 2013

Yes tahir91 we have seen this screen shot -

It doesn't demonstrate anything. The absence of the pending withdrawal doesn't confirm your story as firstly the casino don't deny that there was a pending withdrawal and secondly how the transaction history displays this is very much dependent on the individual software.

I'm afraid nothing you've said changes anything - the delay in payments was plausibly explained by the additional security requirement due to red flags that the activity on your account generated.

As to emails - yes you've shown these emails but once again they don't prove anything. The casino acknowledged you had a pending withdrawal. That's all they show. A customer service rep gave you a standard stalling email with no specific date to allow the casino to pursue their security procedures.

I don't find it plausible at all that you failed to try resetting your password until I requested you do so to prove your account was locked and given your claims that your account was locked has been shown to be untrue, your further claims that Moore Games accessed and intentionally lost your funds lacks any supporting evidence what-so-ever.

I realise this is disappointing to you, but you asked for my independent assessment of the situation and in my opinion the evidence that Moore Games submitted is more credible than your complaint. Your credibility was undermined when you failed to verify one of your main claims. At this stage, unless you can present something that is new this complaint will remain closed and further accusations will result in your account being suspended.

ThePOGG

User icon
tahir91
April 25, 2013

You are being very aggressive with me while it is very clear mooregames are the one you should suspend and not me.

I had no interest to lie about the fact they did or didn't close the account, I was sure they closed the account at the moment I couldn't logged in, it is true I jumped into a conclusion without trying to recover the password but once I figured out the mistake I let u know immediately it was my mistake and the account is open. what interest do I have to tell you the account is closed while it is open ? it will not change anything of my claims.

Regrarding the delay of payment - the second verification process that they asked for extra documents and NETeller screenshot this was done couple of months ago and since then they paid 1 or 2 payments, the delay in payment came with no reason.

The transaction history you showed is not a game history this is true, but it should show a cashout that has been reversed isn't it ?

If there was a pending withdrawal they should show there was a reversal of withdrawal.

You said you saw the logs, did they show you any attempt to reverse the funds ?

It is a very serious thing they did to me and I am not lying to you, I just ask you please help me, please tell me did they show you in any of the loggs they sent you an attempt to reverse that cashout ?

Can you please send me the game logs they showed you because to me they don't answer, isn't it saying anything ? they don't answer me, if I played the money why they don't answer my emails ? why can't I see the logs ?

If you send me the logs I can send it to the software provider and it will help convince them and investigate these are faked logs.

7 months I was in process of being paid. Gambling Grumbles black listed them for not answering them here is the link

Why didn't they answer gambling grumbles ? how come in 3,4 days of complaint I am losing the money all of sudden, isn't it obvious something here doesn't make any sense

hxxp://www.gamblinggrumbles.com/Reports/Moore-Games_Some-monthly-payments-then-nothing

User icon
ThePOGG
April 25, 2013

I'm sorry you feel that way but continued accusations of fraudlent behaviour after the ruling with no new evidence is very serious in itself and has to be treated as such.

Not all casino will respond to all mediators - Gambling Grumbles failure to get a response from Moore Games has no baring on this case.

As with most meditations where personal and security sensitive evidence has to be shared, prior to receiving said evidence I had to consent to a non-disclosure agreement. The transaction history I have seen relates to your game history and clearly shows the play on your account that lost the remaining funds.

There is nothing further I can do for you, nor do I feel you've provided evidence to justify my continued involvement. Your argument revolves around simply asking why would you lie about being locked out of your account. But equally valid are the questions how did you forget a password you'd been using successfully for an extended period of time and why if Moore Games tried to stop you accessing your account did they leave you able to regain access with such ease?

Even if I did feel you had a valid claim - which at this point in time I don't - the severity of your claims which extend not just to an unjust policy enforcement but to flat out fraud, would require an investigation by either the Moore Games software provider or regulator. No one else would be allowed access to the required systems. As such even if I currently believed your claims there would be nothing further I could do. I've provided you with contact details for both these parties, if you wish to take your case any further they are who you need to talk to.

Obviously this is simply my opinion based on the evidence submitted by yourself and Moore Games, but from what I've seen the evidence supports Moore Games assertion that you lost the funds rather than foul play on Moore Games part.

If the regulator or software provider decide there is reason to investigate further and return a verdict in your favor I will be more than happy to reverse this decision and take appropriate action against Moore Games.

ThePOGG

User icon
tahir91
April 25, 2013

The casino ignores me and I understand you are not going to send me the logfiles but may I know at least the dates they claim I played the money ?

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ThePOGG
April 25, 2013

If you want any further information regarding the log files you will need to approach Moore Games regulators. I can't provide any further details. Sorry.

ThePOGG

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ThePOGG
June 6, 2013

Given the circumstance - that being that Moore Games appeared to have shut up shop and disappeared with all player funds - and other instances of gross misconduct prior to closure, the idea that Moore Games accessed player tahir91's account and maliciously lost that balance now appears a lot more plausible. As such this case will now be changed to 'Found for the Player'.

ThePOGG

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tahir91 consented for ThePOGG to act on their behalf and share the personal information that they provide to ThePOGG with the following agencies for the purposes of resolving their complaint:

March 30, 2013

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