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Hi Olkina - Thanks for getting in contact.

I've emailed Smart Live and hopefully we'll be able to resolve this issue quickly.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOOG,

I received an email from Smart Live support yesterday, they said this:

"I can confirm that your account is still being verified by our security team and we cannot give you any information regarding your account until we have a decision from them."

Hi Olkina,

I contacted Smart Live on Monday, but have received no response thus far. I'm sending a follow up now.

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

I haven't heard anything back from Smart Live, but further to our email conversation I am chasing the licensing issue up with the UKGC. My contact there is out of the office until the middle of next month so bare with me while I try and find someone else to talk to.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

Thank you for your involvement.
If I will have some news from IBAS I will update here.
The only sure thing in this case is that Smart Live support is inexistent, I'm very disappointed of them.

Hi Olkina,

Just to keep you in the loop, I have heard back from both Smart Live and the UKGC now though in both instances we are only at the preliminary stages of the conversation.

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

I can confirm that I am now in communication with both Smart Live and the UKGC. 

The UKGC have been very clear that they are not responsible for the licensing of the Smart Live sports betting product, despite their license information being clearly displayed on all sports betting pages.

Smart Live have indicated what they feel the problem to be, but I'm still discussing this with them and with share what I can when I have a fuller picture. They have not yet clarified where their sportsbook license is held.

In response to your last email - if you provide me with the email address of the member of staff who you've been communicating with at the LGA I'll contact them to verify and follow up from there.

Thanks for your patience.

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

I have had further feedback from the UKGC who are going to have to wait for further clarification from the person I initially tired to contact who is out of the office for a few weeks yet. I suspect that they hold no responsibility for Smart Live's sportsbook, but we'll have to wait for further information regarding that.

The LGA have yet to respond to my request for verification, but my knowledge of them leads me to believe that it is normal to experience a couple of weeks turn around time when contact them.

As to Smart Live, the issue here seems to revolve around the security verification call. First off, they've told me that they were unable to reach you on the phone number you initially provided and they've also stated that the person who answered the alternative numbers were unable to correctly answer a substantial number of the security questions. I'm still in discussion regarding this, bare with me.

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

Smart Live have responded today stating that they've now been contacted by IBAS and as such would like to suspend this complaint pending the the outcome of that investigation. Can you confirm this?

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

I have received no written news from Smart Live and from IBAS, I know this news from you right now.
I have received a payment from Smart Live on my Skrill account few hours ago of 940 euro and I don't understand why this sum because my actual game account balance is 6264 euro and my withdrawal request was of 5000 euro.

I do not know what to think now.

Hi Olkina,

Right now I wouldn't worry too much about the delay - you've asked IBAS to become involved. This is a bureaucratic (not meant in a bad way) body. The process from this point on will be a slow one, so I'd adjust your expectations accordingly. I'd be surprised if you have a resolution in less than 3 months.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

I didn't know that the process with IBAS will been a slow one, now I know that so thank you for the information.
From now will I have updates about my case from IBAS or how works the process?

So now we have to close our complaint process here, right?

I'm thinking to do a thing.

If I have understood well all the problem is that Smart Live have doubts about my identity, if I'm a real person.
What do you think if I record a video of me with my passport in the hands while I made a log into my Smart Live game account?

Then I could send it to Smart Live Support and IBAS.

I think that this could be a definitive proof that I'm in good faith and I'm the real person that use the account game.

Thank you again for your help.

Dear ThePOGG,

I have received this email from Smart Live:

"I can confirm that the 940 Euro’s is your initial deposit which you made upon opening an account with us. We have refunded this amount and closed your SmartLive account of which you will not be able to play with us again. Also IBAS has been in touch with us,  we have replied them and we are now awaiting their decision on this matter. "

Hi Olkina,

Honestly, I have no experience dealing with IBAS, but I assume that this will be a slow and thorough examination of the facts in this case. 

IBAS will not communicate with me - they are in many respects a competing service to my own. If you want me involved in the conversation from this point you will have to provide me with whatever information you wish me to have.

As to closing this complaint - I don't have any intentions of doing that at the present time. I have a personal interest in seeing the conclusion that IBAS reach and observing their approach to this situation and am more than happy to assist you in anyway that I can as the process progresses.

Alongside this there's still the issue of Smart Live's sportsbook license to resolve, which is information that's useful to both myself and other site users, so will continue pursuing that issue until the situation becomes clear.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

I notice that now their Terms and Conditions are changed from the day I sent an email to IBAS and their Support where I talked about it.

They have cancelled this:

The Companies reserves the right to close your Member Account and to refund to you the "Account balance" balance, subject to the deduction of relevant withdrawal charges, at the Companies' absolute discretion and without any obligation to state a reason or give prior notice.

and this:

If you have any complaint regarding the Live Casino or Sportsbook products please refer to the UK Gambling Commission.

Hi Olkina,

It's fairly normal for a casino to make alterations to their terms and conditions after a serious player issue has arisen, so I wouldn't worry about this too much at this stage. You know what the terms stated at the time you played, so you know what rules you should be subject to.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

A quick update.

I have contacted IBAS asking how their process works.

This is the reply:

"We will not normally email complainants with updates unless the Panel require further clarification of any points. 

What will happen is that once the panel make a decision this will written up in the office in the form of a ruling and sent to you.  

At the moment I am unable to offer any sort of timescale as to when the Panel’s ruling might be sent only that it will be dealt with as quickly as possible.  Casesnormally take around 608 weeks to conclude so yours is still within this time frame."

I hope that 608 weeks was an error, maybe they wanted to say 6 or 8 weeks.

Hi Olkina,

That's pretty much what I expected and I would concur that the 608 is a mistype of "6-8" given that the 0 and - keys are next to each other on the standard qwerty keyboard.

Looks like you'll just have to wait while they reach their conclusion.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

This is an interesting reading about IBAS:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmcumeds/writev/gambling/m57.htm

12. Among many gamblers IBAS does not have a good reputation. Historically, IBAS has been regarded as being in the pockets of the bookmakers (since it was funded by them) and that it will very often only rule in favour of the customer if there really is no other option. Their decisions have been criticised for their lack of transparency, fairness and consistency. Cases which are clear cut have been ruled wrongly. Some have suggested that cases are not given proper consideration because of a lack of resources and the process by which the submissions of the customer and the bookmaker are dealt with also draw criticism. With an IBAS complaint, the customer complains and then the bookmaker responds with his representations to IBAS and then IBAS rule on the case. However, the customer has no right to counter the submission made by the bookmaker as he would in a court of law. Between the customer and the bookmaker, the bookmaker has the last word and the suspicion among many gamblers is that IBAS take the bookmakers word at face value without proper scrutiny, resulting in unjust rulings. 


This reading is not very reassuring.

I have to wait their conclusion about my case and then I may say if that words saying the true.

Hi Olkina,

With regard to the professional integrity of IBAS I can't pass any comments. I've never had any dealings with them. I'd never recommend that a player specifically seek out their service - much like eCorga - as these groups are funded by the same businesses they are meant to be impartial towards. That said, I run a competing service so I obviously have a vested interest that raises questions as to my objectivity in such a comment. 

All you can do at this stage is wait and see what IBAS have to say.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

Do you have received any news about Smart Live’s Sportsbook license from your contact on UKCG?

Or something from LGA Malta?

Thanks.

Hi Olkina,

I had hoped to receive feedback from the UKGC this week (I did chase this up a few days ago), but haven't heard anything yet. I expect to get some feedback next week.

As to the LGA - from everything I've seen they are completely out of the picture. Neither Smart Live nor the LGA believe that the LGA are responsible for the Smart Live sports betting operation and as such I do not expect to hear anything further from them. 

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

I've received feedback from the UKGC who have confirmed that they do indeed license the Smart Live. As such they are responsible for any complaints within Smart Live's sportsbook product. They've asked me to pass along this guidance on submitting a complaint;

http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/gh-contact_us/complaints/complain_gambling_transaction.aspx

Having read this advice, it appears you are already following the correct procedure and that the UKGC will stand by the decision of IBAS.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

Thank you for your last update.

Very strange that when I asked to UKCG about Smart Live’s Sportsbook license they replied me twice in two different days this:


Thank you for your email regarding Smart TV Broadcasting Limited (also known as Smartlive)

Although this operator holds a Remote Casino and a Remote Bingo licence with the Gambling Commission, this is only for the purposes of providing live television pictures for use on their website and TV channel.

All gambling and the management of customer accounts take place under licence issued by the Malta Lotteries and Gaming Authority


Yours sincerely 
[EDIT]
Licensing Administrator
GAMBLING COMMISSION 


So now I will wait for IBAS response.
For what I see IBAS is a third party for bets settlement dispute.
My case isn't about bets dispute but all the issue is around my genuine identity or not on the eyes of Smart Live Support Team.

How IBAS can verify my genuine identity if they didn't ask me no passport or nothing else yet?

I'm thinking to record a video and send it to IBAS where I show myself with my passport in my hand while I say my Smart Live account number and username.
Then I can show my cell phone while make a call to another cell phone where they can see the same number registered on my Smart Live account.

I think that this proof can remove all doubts about my personal authenticity.

What do you think about submit this video to IBAS like my defence proof?


Thank you again for your help.

[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

There has unquestionably been confusion regarding whether or not the UKGC were responsible for the licensing of Smart Live's online sports betting product. In all honestly that's absolutely understandable - I could not name a single other online gambling firm that holds a UKGC license, specifically I believe due to the higher tax rates that apply to firms licensed in the UK. The member of staff that I initially tried to contact has returned to the office and the situation has now been address.

Regarding submission of evidence to IBAS; I really could not comment in any way on whether this would be a constructive course of action or not - I don't know anything about the IBAS complaints procedure. If I had been handling the complaint, I would be looking to review the recording of the security phone call as if you were as inaccurate as Smart Live claim, it would be strongly suggestive that the person named on the account, while involved in the process, isn't the person who is actually placing the bets. In that case, being able to demonstrate that you could create a video showing the ID of the named account holder wouldn't necessarily be enough to demonstrate ownership of the account.

I would strongly emphasize at this stage that the above is pure conjecture. I am not the person reviewing this issue and even had I been, the evidence in the phone call would have had to be pretty damning before I would have considered it. I'm just explaining what my thought process would be in the situation.

Long story short, I'm not sure that IBAS would take into account, or even look at any evidence you submit, but I can't see how it would do any harm to try.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

I have news from IBAS, they sent me a paper letter to my address home.
This is what they say:

Yourself &amp; Smart Live

Further to receipt of your submission outlining your complaint against the above-named operator the Panel make the following points.

All online bookmakers are required by their licensing authorities to have ‘Know Your Customer‘ protocols. These are in place to stop, amongst other things, the funding of terrorist organisations and money-laundering by those involved in criminal activities.

SmartLive have conveyed to us the difficulties they had in establishing your identity and the reasons they had to doubt that you were the person operating the account. We cannot say that their concerns are unreasonable though equally we are unable to say for certain that their conclusions are correct.
IBAS's principal function is to resolve betting disputes, not to determine whether someone is engaged in deception or not. That requires an investigative operation for which we are neither resourced nor equipped.

We therefore do not feel able to give an opinion either in favour of yourself or SmartLive. If you wish to pursue this matter you should contact The Malta Licensing and Gaming Authority.

Yours sincerely

[EDIT]
Managing Director


So in conclusion, as I thought, they can't give an opinion because their principal function is to resolve betting disputes and not verify a genuine player's identity.

Why Smart Live said to follow this procedure with IBAS if they knew that IBAS can't give any opinion on this matter?
Smart Live have done this to make wasting time to me.

So IBAS say that I have to contact The Malta Licensing and Gaming Authority if I want to pursue this matter.

How do you advise me to proceed now?


Thank you.
[EDIT]

Hi Okina,

Smart Live followed the complaints policy that is laid down by the UKGC and as I don't think either body is particularly familiar with the difficulties that identity misuse poses in the online gaming industry, it doesn't surprise me that IBAS does not have procedures in place to handle this type of issue.

It is notable that IBAS were incorrect to recommend contacting the LGA.

What I would suggest is letting me get back in contact with Smart Live to see if they'll now discuss the issue with me. Before I do that - assuming I have your permission to do so - I'll contact the UKGC and look to find out what their advice would be.

Let me know if that's agreeable to you.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

I can confirm that you can contact UKGC and then Smart Live to see how we can resolve this issue definitively.

If Smart Live refuse to discuss with you I'm thinking to bring them to The Small Claims Court or to ask help to a lawyer against them.

Thank you again for your help.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

Just to confirm - I have contact the UKGC, but haven't yet received a response. For the time being I put this down to the time of year and seasonal absences. As such this is likely to take until sometime in January. In the meantime I'll contact Smart Live and see what they have to say.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

Thank you for the update.

I will wait for what Smart Live will say to you.

You can already tell them that if we don't reach any deal I will bring them to the Small Claims Court and I will take a lawyer to defend me.

Thank you.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

I have yet to receive any response from either Smart Live or the UKGC. I'll be chasing this up on the 6th, being the first full week after New Year.

Hope you've enjoyed the festive season.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOOG,

Happy new year to you, I passed a good festive season and I hope you too.

So we wait some new from Smart Live or the UKGC from next week, it is normal that on holidays everyone stops.

Thank you.

[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

I've just sent off follow up emails to both the UKGC and Smart Live regarding this issue.

I wouldn't like to state what is "normal" as different groups have different working policies, but it has been my experience over the last few years that the majority of affiliate departments (my main contacts) are minimally staffed if not completely closed from just before Christmas to just after New Year. I assume that this holiday period is reflected across other departments excluding perhaps front line customer service.

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

I've received a response from the UKGC who apologised for the delay as an oversight. Their advice was as follows;

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">I think the best response I can give is that as gambling debts are enforceable by contract law then consumers can consider taking civil legal action to recover their money, for example through a small claims court.
 
If the player is considering taking that option then it is likely to be worth ensuring that they have exhausted the complaints process with the operator before taking legal action.

Licensed operators must:

<ul><li>have a written procedure for handling customer complaints – and customers must be told the name and status of the person to contact about their complaint and given a copy of the complaints procedure on request.</li>
<li>ensure that customers whose disputes are not resolved to their satisfaction by use of the operator’s complaints procedure are able to refer those disputes to an independent third party.</li>
</ul> 
We don’t specify who the independent third party should be, but the licence holder should be able to demonstrate that any third party arrangements they set up ensure the third party is independent of them.</blockquote>

Now, given that IBAS declined to review the dispute, as far as I can see Smart Live are required to provide an alternative 3rd party to mediate the discussion. As such, if Smart Live fail to respond to my email on Monday by the close of business tomorrow I will be forwarding on the UKGC's advice to them and requesting that they provide a copy of their complaints procedure, the contact details of the person dealing with the dispute and for them to make a decision regarding who the third party in this case whould be. 

I may be able to provide some advice on pursuing a casino through the small claims court - though I'll have to take advice on this first - but I agree with the UKGC's recommendation that we should ensure to exhaust Smart Live's license stipulated complaints procedure prior to going down that road.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

thank you for the news about my case.

I'm totally agree with you and with UKGC. 
So we wait some others days for Smart Live to respond to you and if they don't I think that I have to procede through the small claims court.

Your help is very important for me so I'm very grateful to you.

Thanks.
[EDIT]

As stated I forwarded the UKGC's advice to Smart Live yesterday. Hopefully they will respond shortly.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

I have received a response from Smart Live who are looking into the UKGC's advice just now and should be in contact soon.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

I've chased Smart Live twice this week regarding their response to the UKGC's advice with no information forthcoming. I'd ask you to allow a couple of weeks more for me to continue chasing this and if we don't get a response our next step will be to lodge a complaint with the UKGC for failure to comply with their licensing agreement.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

Ok, we wait a couple of weeks yet, then we'll make a complaint with the UKGC.
Smart Live support is very very awful, I have no words about this.

Thank you for the update.

[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

Smart Live have responded stating that IBAS are dealing with the issue. For obvious reason I'm dubious about that claim and have responded to them stating that IBAS have already declined to make a ruling in this case. What I want to confirm with you is that you've not heard anything further from IBAS reversing their previous decision?

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

Of course I have received no other updates from IBAS after their paper letter where they said that they couldn't be involved in this case.

I can write an email to IBAS asking if what Smart Live Support saying to you is true or not.

When I will receive a response from IBAS about this I will tell you.


Thank you.
[EDIT]

Hi ThePOGG,

I just received a reply from IBAS after my email asking about Smart Live.

This is the reply:


"We are no longer dealing with. 
Smart Live might not have received a copy of our letter which I will resend today. 

Regards."


I'm dubious that Smart Live didn't received IBAS's letter, I think that they are searching to do everything they can to prolong this issue without do nothing to resolve it.

I think that we have to communicate this unfair behavior to UKGC and then proceed against them with The Small Claims Court.

What do you think? How can we proceed?

Thank you.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

In honesty it wouldn't surprise me at all if the IBAS communication has been received, but just not by the right person. 

A letter will have been sent to Smart Live, but whether or not it has been correctly 'FAO'ed is anyone's guess. The person who receives the letter is the person responsible for the issue and it gets filed away never to be seen again.

My opinion at this stage is that we should look to find out Smart Live's response to this and what they intend to do next. Any court is going to frown on a case brought to them where every effort has not been made to use the internal/regulatory complaints process to resolve the issue first. The UKGC aren't going to view positively - in fact may abstain completely from - a complaint where the operator hasn't been given every opportunity to comply with their license. The short of that is that until Smart Live refuse to comply with their license agreement (i.e. naming an independent 3rd party to review the case and providing contact details for the member of staff at Smart Live dealing with the issue) you simply don't have a case to take to the UKGC.

My advice is to let me push Smart Live further - they can no longer claim that IBAS is dealing with the issue - and we'll see what their response is now. If they fail to meet their license agreement, then we can take this to the UKGC and after that the small claims court.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

Ok, I'm agree with you.

We wait what Smart Live have to say, if they fail to meet their license agreement then we can report this to the UKGC.

Thank you.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

I want to apologise for the delays. I've had some major work done on the code to improve the speed at which the site loads. Unfortunately that work has prevented me from posting anything for the last week and a half.

The current situation is that Smart Live have responded saying that it's not there problem that IBAS have declined to review the dispute. I've informed them that you wish ThePOGG to mediate in that instance at which point they've become unresponsive. I'm giving them until the end of the week to get back on track and if they don't I'll approach the UKGC at the start of next week, though I'll probably need your cooperation at that point.

Thanks.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

Don't worry about the delays.

You can ask all what you need when you will approach UKGC about my case.

Thank you.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

Unfortunately Smart Live have chosen not to respond to my communications. As such I'll contact the UKGC first thing on Monday. The reason for the delay is tactical - simply put I want the email at the top of the inbox, not underneath everything that came in over the weekend.

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

Smart Live casino got back to me just before I emailed the UKGC yesterday. I've informed them that as you've elected to have me act as the 3rd party to review this issue, if they are unhappy with this then they need to provide a list of 3rd parties that they would be prepared to work with to meet their regulatory requirements. I'm waiting to hear back from them now.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

Smart Live has once again failed to respond to my last email (sent Monday the 17th). As such - assuming no further communication - I'll be contacting the UKGC on Monday the 24th as I'd intended to on the 17th.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

I've contacted the UKGC this morning and am hoping to have a response some time this week.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

Ok, we wait what UKGC have to say.

Thank you for your time and help.

Olga.

Hi Olkina,

I've just heard back from the UKGC and they've agreed to intervene at this stage, though to do so they need to speak to you directly. As such I'm going to ask you to email my contact, [EDIT] at [EDIT] and they'll start the process.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

I received a response from [EDIT] asking me to send him all copies of email I have had from SmartLive.

I just send it to him.

When I will have some update I will refer to you.

Thank you.
EDIT

Thanks for the update Olkina.

My understanding of their intentions is that they want to get a complete picture then speak to Smart Live to find an independent 3rd party that Smart Live are happy to work with to review the case as they seem to have made clear that they are not comfortable working with ThePOGG.

Please keep me informed as things progress.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

Has there been any further progress with your issue now that the UKGC are involved?

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

I'm still waiting a response from your contact on UKGC.

I sent him on february 27th all copies of emails I have had from SmartLive and until now I received no other emails from [EDIT].

Thanks.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

I've had some feedback from the UKGC stating that none of the evidence you've submitted to them demonstrates that Smart Live are refusing to let you go to a independent third party for a review of your complaint. I've clarified with the UKGC that the issue is not that Smart Live have refused to let you go to a 3rd party, but rather that they will not work with any of the 3rd parties that have experience in dealing with these types of issues. At the current time I know that Smart Live have declined to work with CasinoMeister, Ask Gamblers (though they're less of a mediator than a forum for public complaint and Gambling Grumbles. As none affiliate model 3rd parties go they are not members of either eCorga or the CDS and given that IBAS have declined the complaint, my point to the UKGC has been that the options for 3rd parties that can manage an issue like this are now very thin on the ground.

We're splitting hairs to argue that Smart Live aren't refusing to let you take your complaint to 3rd parties if they simply won't work with any of the options available.

Bear with me while I continue this discussion.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

I'm little bewildered about SmartLive behavior, they feel strong in their decision and they don't want no one which may be contrary or can discuss this issue.

I'm surprised about UKGC behavior also, I don't know what to say about all this story.

I think that my last chance to have some justice is to bring them through the small claims court, but I wait your approval for this.

We wait what the last word from UKGC will be and then we can decide how to proceed.

Thanks again for your patience and help in this matter.

[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

Unfortunately, the UKGC's position is that nothing they've seen directly shows Smart Live refusing to allow an independent 3rd party to review the case and as such they've no grounds to challenge them for breach of license.

As such, what I'd like to do is either provide the UKGC with the required evidence or press Smart Live into discussion. What I'd like you to do is copy the below text and send it in an email to whoever you were communicating with at Smart Live. I'd also like you to CC the email to webmaster@thepogg.com and [EDIT].


<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"Dear [INSERT NAME],

I'm contacting you regarding the refusal of Smart Live to issue the payment of my balance ([INSERT AMOUNT AND CURRENCY]). 

My username is [INSERT] and the email address I registered with Smart Live is [INSERT].

As stipulated by Smart Live's UKGC license, you are required to allow me to request that an independent 3rd party reviews your decision. I refer specifically to;

"Licensed operators must:
<ul>
<li>have a written procedure for handling customer complaints – and customers must be told the name and status of the person to contact about their complaint and given a copy of the complaints procedure on request.</li>
<li>ensure that customers whose disputes are not resolved to their satisfaction by use of the operator’s complaints procedure are able to refer those disputes to an independent third party.</li></ul>"

Given that IBAS has declined to pass any verdict on this issue due to their lack of relevant experience with cases related to KYC obligations, I'm formally requesting that at this point Smart Live consider ThePOGG.com to be my independent 3rd party of choice and as such I give Smart Live full permission to discuss any and all details of my account, personal details and transactions with their representative.

I have CC both webmaster@thepogg.com and [EDIT] and would request that you direct any response you have to myself and the two aforementioned individuals.

Regards,

[EDIT]</blockquote>

Hi ThePOGG,

I have just sent your email form to Smart Live with CC you and [EDIT].

I hope that Smart Live will respond something.

Thank you for your precious advice and support.

Regards

[EDIT]

Hi ThePOGG,

I received Smart Live email just now and you too I think.

They continue to deny others third parties.

They say that I'm unable to verify the full details on my account.

This is false because they didn't ask me others documents or ways to verify my account, they asked me only Passport, utility bill and phone number.

I sent them all of it without result.

So at last they say that I have to proceed further to court if I'm not happy with their decisions.

How we can proceed now?


Thanks.

Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

I've received the response from Smart Live and I believe - though it will require further discussion - that their response should be enough to allow the UKGC to move forward. These issue up till this point has been that nothing that either you or myself have been able to provide the UKGC with has explicitly stated that they will not work with 3rd parties. I had expected them to say that they were unwilling to work with ThePOGG.com and in discussion with the UKGC, I believe that would have been enough to allow the UKGC to step in. That they've gone further than this and stated that they will only work with IBAS only benefits our argument for the UKGC to step in. Whether they will want ThePOGG to review the issue or they'll want to do so themselves, I cannot comment on at this point.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

At this point I hope that UKGC will do something and that they will be involved in the issue.

I will wait for a your or UKGC update.

Thanks.

Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi ThePOGG,

Do you have any news from UKGC?

I received no updates from them after last Smart Live email.

Thanks.

Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

This has been my fault - I made a mess of forwarding the email response to the UKGC 2 weeks ago which I've just corrected now. I believe they will have received it independently, but they may need to receive it from you directly or there may be an ongoing conversation right now.

Let me chase all this up and I'll get back to you.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

A quick update for you.

[EDIT] sent me an email on 4th April asking me this:

"Can we write to Smartlive naming you as the person that has contacted us?

Do you agree to allow us to use the details you have supplied in our correspondence with Smartlive?"

I answered to him the same day that I allow them to use all of it.

Until now no other news from [EDIT] and SmartLive.

Thanks.

Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

I spoke with the UKGC yesterday, this is still being actively pursued, but has been handed off to the remote operators department. I'll feed back as soon as I know something useful.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina, 

I didn't see your post yesterday as it was submitted less than 2 minutes before my own went up (i.e. I was writing my when you submitted yours).

I realise I've been preaching patience  for the best part of 6 months now and completely understand how frustrating that must be.

The UKGC are relatively new when it comes to involvement in the online gambling industry, at least compared with the other regulators in operation. As a regulator I've been far more impressed with what I've seen so far than I have with other bodies. It has unquestionably been somewhat frustrating getting them to get into the game, but that's partly been my fault. They have rules and they need those rules to be met to the letter - as most government organizations do. As such when I was giving them information show that Smart Live were failing to respond to requests to discuss the issue, this wasn't enough to meet the terms of their license. Nothing that either of us could provide actually demonstrated that Smart Live would not speak to me and that was the purpose of the last email I got you to send in. Smart Live's response more than adequately met that condition.

Now however this leaves the UKGC in new territory. They have not previously dealt with instance of one of their vendors denying payment due to identity concerns, which means that they now either have to lay out a new framework for how they'll approach these types of situations and assess the strength of the evidence collected, or they need to decide who they feel is qualified to assess such situations (btw, that ultimately may not end up being me). Either way this involves new processes being put in place and new policies being created and as we're talking about a government body, this is going to be a slow process.

I'll also stress at this point that whoever ultimately may rule against you. I have not seen the evidence that Smart Live claim to have and as such cannot pass a judgement on that aspect of this complaint. For the time being my support is to ensure that your case gets reviewed by an independent party and that's all I can do unless I'm allowed to review the evidence.

I'd also stress that if the ruling was to come back against you, you would have next to no chance of successful court action against Smart Live. However, if you were to try going through the courts without first exhausting all regulatory avenues, you would likewise have a substantially reduced chance. Before court action is a realistic option, you really need a regulatory ruling in your favour, though I suspect that if that happens you'll be paid without the need to go through the courts.

I hope all of the above helps you understand the situation.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,


Thank you for the update.

I think I have figured out and understood all the situation.

I have to wait that this bureaucratic process evolves, I waited months already so I think that this is not a problem for me, patience.

So if will be some news who will inform me?

By UKGC or by you?

I ask you this to better understand the process.


Thanks again for all your help for my case.

Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

At this particular stage in time I can't confirm who'll provide the next piece of info, it depends on whether the UKGC decide to deal with this internally, decide to nominate another service or decide to use our facility to deal with the issue. So you may hear from me or the UKGC next.

Regardless I'll continue to pursue this on a weekly basis until such time as I have some information for you.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

I received a new email from Smart Live, they said this:

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"We appreciate you contacting several third parties regarding your account query which has already been settled as your account has now been closed and the initial deposit you made has also been refunded.

It has come to our notification that you in touch with the UK gambling commission regarding this matter after we have explained the complaint procedure to you. 

I will like to give you a reminder that this procedure is still in place and my advice is that you contact another third party regulatory that deals with these sort of complaints.

As IBAS has been unable to make a decision, please contact Independent Panel for Casino Arbitration (IPCA) IPCA, PO Box 5698, London, W1A 7AW. They will then contact you and us with a reply or any further way to proceed with this case.

If you have any other questions or queries, please feel free to contact us, we will be delighted to help."</blockquote>


So they have chosen IPCA like third party regulatory.

What do you think about this third party regulator?
Do you have some information about it?

My doubt is if IPCA is a genuine regulator with players issue, can I trust them?

How I have to contact IPCA?
I have to send a paper letter to that address or can I contact them with email?

Sorry for my many questions.

Thank you.

Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

I'm glad to see that Smart Live have actually followed through and provided advice on who they will work with.

I personally have no experience of the Independent Panel for Casino Arbitration and as such cannot comment on the service they offer in any way, though it should be noted that the IPCA are listed on the UKGC website and as such clearly have experience in the field. I've had a quick look and they do not appear to have a website, which admittedly is somewhat inconvenient and suggestive that this is a service primarily targeted at the offline sector. As such you'll have to submit your complaint to them via post. I would suggest including your email address and requesting that they use it as your primary contact. This should facilitate quicker evidence submission.

Hope that helps.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

I want inform you that I sent the paper letter to IPCA yesterday.

I will wait a their response and when I will have some news I will refer you.

Thanks for your advices.

Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

Have you had any response from the IPCA?

Thanks

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

I sent the paper letter to the IPCA on April 17th and until now they didn't received nothing because I can check the tracking number of the letter on internet and it result not taken from anyone.

The address of IPCA where I sent the letter was this:

Independent Panel for Casino Arbitration (IPCA) IPCA, PO Box 5698, London, W1A 7AW.

I'm very frustrated with my case, nothing goes on the right way.
On the internet era IPCA can receive only paper letters? for what? I don't understand.

I don't know what to do.
Maybe is better to commit to a lawyer all this case so will be him to work on it.

What is your advice ThePOGG?

Thanks.

Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

I completely agree that it strikes me as very user unfriendly that modern era this group do not offer any form of online communication system. To one degree or another this unquestionably results in slowing down any conversation or progress being made. 

While I realise that this isn't going to be what you want to hear, my advice would be to give the IPCA 3 full months from the day that they should have received your complaint to respond which would be (assuming first class postage) the 18th of July. Beyond 3 months I feel that it's entirely arguable that the IPCA have failed to offer a reasonable framework to support player complaints and I would take the issue back the the UKGC with the intention being to state that this will now need to be resolved as a priority issue otherwise legal action will have to be taken.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG,

Thanks for your answer.

I agree with your advice, I will wait until the 18th of July and if nothing going to happen you can contact UKGC again explaining all.
Hoping that UKGC will move in some ways after that.

Thanks for your help.

Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi ThePOGG,

I have a little update from my case.

Meanwhile no news from my paper letter to IPCA, I think that it is lost somewhere.

Luckily I was able to find an email contact of a member of IPCA, [EDIT], on his linkedin profile.
So I have write to him about my problem.

He replied me very fast this:

"An investigation of this type would normally be forwarded to a member of  IPCA by the Operator concerned (as it is their responsibility to fund the investigation).
I have not been contacted by the Operator you mention.
I will forward your e-mail to our IPCA Administrator but my advice to you is to write again to the address you have for the Operator and request them to refer the matter."

How he say, should be the Operator to make this kind of request to IPCA, not the player how they said to me.

This testifies another time what kind of conduct have Smart Live Support.

They are trying to lengthen the time with the hope that I get tired.

Now I will write to Smart Live asking that must be their to contact IPCA.

Thanks.

Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi ThePOGG,

Another member of IPCA contact me, [EDIT] from Nationalcasinoforum.co.uk.
This is what she say:

"I confirm that I have not received any correspondence from you.

Mr Good has forwarded the documents to me which you sent him which I have read.  
I confirm that online gaming disputes is not an area for IPCA to arbitrate on, however, I will do my best to see that you get answer; I am puzzled as to why Smart Live suggested IPCA to you as they are a member of IBAS and should seek to resolve this matter through IBAS or directly with yourself.  

Can you confirm what outcome you are seeking from arbitration and with whom in the Commission you corresponded? I am copying this email to the Gambling Commission."

I just replied her with information that she asked me.

I will tell you if other news comes.

Thanks.

Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

I've got to say that I'm really disappointed with all of this. If IBAS and the IPCA are not set up to handle online casino complaints, casinos should not be putting forward these bodies as relevant agencies to contact.

Unfortunately due to a change in positions at the UKGC, my previous contact has moved to a different position so I'll have to try and develop a relationship with their replacement. I will contact the UKGC regarding this issue and see what I can find out for you.

Bear with me.

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG

I received another email from IPCA member:

"Although it is not in my remit to deal with online disputes I have spoken to the Gambling Commission regarding the handling of your complaint.  

The Gambling Commission has confirmed that it told Smart Live to nominate an alternative third party dispute resolution provider, but that they did not suggest that IPCA was the alternative provider in this instance.  

The Gambling Commission informed me that they will be contacting Smart Live requesting that the details of an appropriate third party dispute resolution provider is made available to you."


Regards.
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

Yes that makes sense. From what I can see this will be a bit of a bind for Smart Live. The reality is that if they are not willing to work with sites like ThePOGG, now that IBAS and the IPCA have been removed from the picture there really aren't that many bodies they can work with. I guess they could approach eCorga, but they'd have to pay a fee for that. None-the-less, this has been valuable in clarifying how the UKGC are going to respond to player complaints.

Let's see what Smart Live come back with and we'll look at our options from there.

ThePOGG

Hi Olkina,

Have you had any further feedback from Smart Live?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG

On my case is working mr Good from IPCA but outside IPCA procedures because IPCA not works with online operator.
Smart Live said to be favorable that mr Good conduct the complaint process.
Mr Good received all the informations from me and Smart Live but told me to be out of his office from 3th July from 14th July.
When I will have some feedback from him I will inform you.

Thanks.

Regards
[EDIT]

Hi ThePOGG

I received the final report about my dispute with Smart Live from IPCA.

I don't copy all the report here because is very long, I will copy some of most important conclusions about the case.


- Proof of identity documents have been sent by you, on two occasions, and acknowledged by SLC in terms that indicate they were satisfactory.  You have regularly dealt with them via your Skrill account.

- SLC refer to their terms and conditions and in my view you have provided the necessary information, including updated telephone contact details.  The Gambling Commission's Licence condition 7 deals with 'fair and open' provisions and it seems to me SLC have relied upon a too strict interpretation of their terms and conditions, I am not persuaded by their arguments.

- Additionally, it is not clear to me that SLC have fully followed their own complaints procedure in dealing with your complaint.

- Clearly there are widely differing views held by each party to this case but on balance, I substantiate your first complaint against SLC.   On the information provided I do not see any valid reason for SLC to withhold your winnings 

- In view of my findings above I would now advise you to contact the Head of Gaming at SLC in order that heshe may deal with your outstanding claim.


So for my full satisfaction IPCA sentence is in my favor.

I sent an email to Smart Live yesterday about this final report and now I will wait if they will honour IPCA decision or if I have to proceed in other ways.

I will update you.


Thank you

Regards
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

I'm absolutely thrilled to hear that the IPCA ruled in your favour and this goes a long way to validating my initial concern that Smart Live had based the decision not to pay solely on the account verification phone call, which by itself would be insufficient to justify failure to pay a substantial balance.

As far as I'm aware Smart Live are bound by the terms of their UKGC license to honour the ruling, though I am aware of another player issue at CasinoMeister where IBAS handled the complaint (I can't see why they agreed to manage that complaint but not yours) and after a verdict for the player Smart Live went back to IBAS to submit further evidence (apparently they'd been very reluctant previous to the ruling). My point being that if this case follows the same pattern there's every possibility that Smart Live will now want to engage more fully with the IPCA, so you may have to endure a wait for a further "final" ruling.

At the present time my assessment of the case is that Smart Live don't have much more than your security verification phone call to base this on and as such I hope this issue will draw to a close in the next few weeks.

Thanks for sticking in with this Olkina!

ThePOGG

Hi ThePOGG

I'm glad to announce you that I received my winnings from Smart Live Gaming yesterday.

IPCA told me to contact UKGC if after 14 days from their Report I had not received the funds.

So I contacted [EDIT] from UKGC on 6th August because till that date I had not received any funds after IPCA's Report in my favour.

He was very kind and finally yesterday I received my funds.

I want say you many thanks because you are been very useful and professional in all this matter and without your help I'm sure that my winnings would be retained wrongly by Smart Live without I could not do anything.

Many thanks again and good work.

Best Regards
[EDIT]

Hi Olkina,

I'm absolutely thrilled to hear that. 

As stated above, the IPCA verdict appears to validate my opinion that Smart Live were basing the confiscation of your balance on their dissatisfaction with the quality of your answers during the security verification phone call. If that is the case, this was far too little in the form of supporting evidence to justify the withholding of your balance. Not having been on the inside of the IPCA investigation I cannot say this for sure, but it seems likely to be the case.

Usually when a player is paid I'll mark the report as 'Resolved', however in this instance as Smart Live were consistently non-cooperative with our mediation service and ultimately had to be forced to pay rather than doing the right thing on their own I feel the only appropriate status for this report is 'Found for the Player'.

I would credit everyone involved in this extended discussion including those individuals at the UKGC that I spoke to at length and those that managed this issue within IBAS/IPCA. It took a long time to resolve, but this is a clear example of the system working for the player!

ThePOGG

Smart Live were forced to return this players balance after and IPCA investigation show insufficient evidence for confiscation.

I have a problem with Smart Live Gaming site, I played only on their Sportsbook section and I used no bonus, played with my funds only.
 
 This is my story:
 
 The date of my first withdrawal request with Skrill of €6264 was submitted on 01/09/2013.
 
 After this request them request to me to send again documents to verify my identity and residence.
 I sent this documents some months ago (January) when I requested my first withdrawal with them that was been processed within 3 working days, all fine.
 
 I sent again the documents and customer support said to me that all was fine, my account was been verified correctly again.
 
 I waited my payment until 15/09/2013, then I cancelled manually that request because I noticed in their site that maximum amount for a single withdrawal request through Skrill is £5000.
 
 They said to me nothing about this so I don't know if the payment delays was for that reason. So I requested a new withdrawals with Skrill of €5000 on 15/09/2013 but until now nothing happens.
 
 The customer support say to me every time that "the query has been passed on to the finance team and once we have a confirmation from them, your withdrawal will surely be sent to you."
 
 Then they said to me that they wanted speak with me on the phone, I don't now for what and why and if this is a correct practice about my own privacy. I moved for some time outside my country for work.
 
 I'm a Russian citizen so my English speaking is very poor and I use an online translator every time I have to translate and send them an email.
 
 So I asked them if I could speak with their Russian adviser to resolve this payment delay. I gave them my telephone and a their adviser called me, he asked questions about my account, fine.
 
 I'm waiting to receive my funds yet.
 
 They don't respond to my emails anymore.
 
 Thank you. 
 
 My username on their site is [EDIT].

Smart Live - Delayed Payment 

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