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Hi emjemz - welcome to ThePOGG.com!

I need you to clear up a couple of issues for me before we move forward. Firstly did eCOGRA direct you to us specifically? Secondly have you ever self-excluded at any WHG casino?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hey it was a link with your name in it too, as far as I know I didn't but think I might have from one of them now? I just st want my deposits back, if they are going to close my accounts they need to refund my deposits as it's not fair gaming! Please help

I had apparently closed my account last year, which I forgot about and they said closed is not excluded, now iam apparently self excluded which they did not me, if iam excluded I would like my deposits back?

Hi also I opened a account with casilando and before deposited I asked if I had any other accounts she said. I, I've since found out that the WHG have loads?! I'm sure I excluded from gday casino and reels island, I can't keep up with how many they have but different names, so if iam excluded all deposits should be refunded to me?

And the grand ivy! I'm just looking into it now

Can u let me know what's happening please?

Hi emjemz,

We are still going through the information that the operator has provided relating to your case. I'll revert to you when that's finished.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi emjemz,

I have now had a chance to go through the large amount of communications between yourself and the operator related to this issue. Unfortunately, as things stand, there are no grounds for the operator to refund any further losses.

All UKGC licensed operators are required to comply with Responsible Gambling policies laid out by the Gambling Commission. While the primary function for these policies is to allow players support to help them control their gambling if they feel it is becoming problematic, however operators are also required to take action to restrict gambling of any player that they feel is high risk of experiencing issues controlling their gambling. Where the operator feels the need to take such action they are required to return any funds currently in the player’s account/s, but they would not be required to return prior losses unless it could be established that they should have acted earlier.

Following through the chain of events there are several key points of concern:

- On the 12th of May you contacted the operator claiming to be self-excluded with properties within their group and looking for deposits refunded. This triggered an investigation into your account activity that locked all accounts for the duration. 

- On the 18th of May you were informed that the investigation had been concluded and no self-exclusions were found. You were then asked whether you wanted to leave the accounts open or apply a self-exclusion. You confirmed that you wanted to keep your account open and requested a bonus that was awarded.

- Between the 19th and the 20th you proceeded to play at G’Day and your balance fluctuated going as high at £10900 on the 20th at 02:04 server time but ultimately you play this away to nothing before concluding play on the 20th. 

- On the 25th of May you contacted the operator informing them that you wanted your deposits refunded as you has self-excluded with William Hill who are owned by WHG International. While we understand the reason for your confusion White Hat Gaming are an entirely separate company to William Hill, with no ownership ties and operated on a different license. A self-exclusion at William Hill would never be automatically transferred to the White Hat Gaming group.

- On the 28th of May the operator asked that you provide bank statements to allow them to confirm the source of the funds being deposited to your account due to being made aware of a self-exclusion at another operator and increased activity on some of your accounts. At the same time you provided the operator with these statements you informed the operator that: 

“I’m [EDIT] years of age and worked all my life until [EDIT]!! The money is from my life savings!!! I’m [EDIT] and my husband is a [EDIT]!!!”

Objectively this triggers serious concerns about the potential impact gambling is having on your life. You have clearly been through a lot in the last few years, enough that most people in your situation would be considered to be under a great deal of stress. Alongside this you state that the funds you are playing with are “life savings”, that you have [EDIT] and your husband’s profession would not provide enough disposable income to account for the significant deposits you were making.

Additionally the bank statements showed that the funds being deposited to your player accounts were [EDIT].

And all of the above has to be viewed with the knowledge that you have previously engaged responsible gambling policies with William Hill.

- On the 29th of May, having reviewed the information detailed above, the operator took the decision to apply a 6 month responsible gambling exclusion to your account. Given the information you sent through to them on the 28th this was an entirely appropriate decision and the operator would have been out with their social responsibility requirements had they not done this. At this time the current balances within your player accounts were returned to you. The funds you state in your complaint as being contested at G’Day casino had been lost before this action was taken.

Having reviewed each of your player accounts, the balances that were present at the time the exclusion was applied have been returned to you correctly and no further refund is due.

To give detail, your final closing balance at the various operators was as follows:

- Casilando £0.08 on the 26/05 at 09:04. No further play occurs.

- G'Day £0.07 on the 21/05 at 16:15. No further play occurs.

- Miami Dice £0.05 on the 26/05 at 10:42. No further play occurs but £300 is added to the account due to a gameplay dispute. Withdrawal of £300.05 processed.

As stated above, it is only the balances at the time that the restriction was applied that can be considered due and these have all been paid correctly.

While it is not directly raised in your complaint here I wanted to address the deposit limits that you’ve changed as this appears to be a significant bone of contention between yourself and the White Hat Gaming group. Firstly I have to be clear that by UKGC requirements a deposit limit instituted at one casino is noT applied at other properties in the group in the same way that self-exclusions are. As such each player account has to be reviewed separately.

Firstly there are no instances of you requesting deposit limits on Hello, SlotPlanet, G’Day or Grand Ivy. As such these accounts will be disregarded.

The three remaining brands are 21, Casilando and Miami Dice which I’ll cover below:

21
<ul>
<li>On the 21st of May you request a £2000 weekly limit. This is applied immediately.</li>
<li>On the 23rd of May you deposited £450.</li>
</ul>

Total deposited is inside the limit initiated.

Casilando

<ul>
<li>On the 8th of May you requested a £2000 weekly limit at 00:47 server time. This is applied immediately.
<li>On the 10th of May you requested that the weekly limit be removed at 09:55 server time. This requires a 24h cooling off period. </li>
<li>Deposits made between 8/5 at 00:47 and 11/5 at 09:55:
<ul>
<li>8/5 00:49 £300</li>
<li>8/5 13:10 £20</li>
<li>8/5 22:03 £210</li>
<li>9/5 09:28 £500</li>
<li>9/5 10:24 £160</li>
<li>9/5 13:52 £20</li>
<li>10/5 09:35 £700</li>
<li>10/5 09:44 £80</li>
</ul>

Total deposited : £1990 – this is within the deposit limits initiated.

<ul>
<li>On the 11th of May you requested a £5000 per day at 10:26 server time. This is applied immediately.</li>
<li>On the 19th of May you requested to decrease your limit to £2000 per week at 15:24 server time. This is applied immediately.</li>
<li>Deposits made between 11/05 at 10:26 and 12/05 at 10:26:
<ul>
<li>11/5 12:17 £150</li>
<li>11/5 14:45 £600</li>
<li>11/5 14:53 £700</li>
<li>11/5 15:46 £400</li>
<li>11/5 15:54 £500</li>
<li>11/5 15:58 £1000</li>
<li>11/5 16:27 £500</li>
<li>11/5 19:12 £500</li>
<li>11/5 19:16 £300</li>
</ul>

Total deposited: £4650 – this is within the deposit limits initiated.

No deposits are made until the 18/5:
<ul>
<li>18/5 13:46 £200</li>
<li>18/5 13:52 £150</li>
<li>18/5 14:17 £150</li>
<li>18/5 14:28 £30</li>
<li>18/5 17:28 £200</li>
<li>19/5 11:35 £280</li>
<li>19/5 11:43 £140</li>
</ul>

Total deposited in 24h period : £1150 – this is within the deposit limits initiated.
</li></ul>

At this point your deposit limit is reduced to £2000/week.

You make four further deposits:
<ul>
<li>19/5 22:36 £50</li>
<li>20/5 11:38 £80</li>
<li>23/5 12:17 £90</li>
<li>25/5 11:04 £600</li>
</ul>

Total deposited after the deposit limit reduction: £820.

Even if we consider the £2000/week limit from the start of the 18/5 through to the deposit on the 25/5 the total deposited is £1970 – this is within the deposit limits initiated.


Miami Dice
<ul>
<li>On the 25th of May you requested a £2000 weekly limit at 21:33 server time. This is applied immediately.</li>

<li>Deposits made after this:
<ul>
<li>26/5 10:08 £100</li>
</ul></li></ul>

Total deposited : £100 – this is within the deposit limits initiated.

As you can see from the above your deposits never exceeded the deposit limits you requested and the correct cooling off period was always applied any time you requested to raise your limits.


I do appreciate your frustrations and I would understand if you feel the operator are incorrect in applying an exclusion, but based on the information they were provided they’ve taken the correct action at the correct time, the correct refunds have been applied and the correct deposit limits have been applied.

ThePOGG

Why are u putting all my personal things on this forum? That's a bit unfair, it's from our joint account and has no relevance to this!! [EDIT] Gday casino I had over £3800 before they froze my account then gave me back £2591 where was the rest of this?? But the history just "disappeared" and casilando had a live game where the dealer flipped his cards and I was owed £550?? Not fair gaming I'm afraid!!! This is a joke!

I would like the last bit the personal section muted please or removed

They are liars u know! I'm sure now I was excluded beforehand but because they say no that's it set in stone?! I wasn't sure and I asked them, they have lied.

Hi emjemz,

Firstly, this isn't a public forum. This is a private complaint thread viewable only by site management and yourself. To provide a full response to your complaint required detailing the full justifications for the ruling. Due to the nature of your complaint this necessarily required detailing the personal factors that lead to the operator's decision.  

Before any complaint report is published any information that could be considered sensitive (i.e. could lead to your personal identification) is removed. Of course we'll be happy to trim further due to the personal nature of the above information.

I have looked through the complete communication and play records for your accounts (hence why this case has taken so much time) to find any evidence of the balance you've claimed or further exclusion requests. If you have can provide emails of previous communications show requests for a self-exclusion or screen shots showing the balance after the date in question I'd be happy to take them into consideration.

With regard to the game error - I'm already aware of this this was verified by the game provider and your Miami Dice account was credited with the correct funds prior to your final payment being sent..

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hey, ok that's fine, no I don't have any screen shots of that, I only saw with my own eyes, I feel this is really no fair, I know I should have just taken the winnings as I was up overall £30k from them all! They are not telling the truth, I did excluded previously and I can remember with what I've been through, gday owe me £1200 and casilando £550, please can u help me?

Hi emjemz,

We've done as much as we can do. We have reviewed all account and communication records. They don't support your claims. In fact, there are numerous occasions throughout the communications where you ask if you have excluded in the past. This doesn't suggest the same certainty you have now and when you are told that you haven't excluded you accept this.

Without any evidence to support your assertions that there were further balances or other exclusions there's nothing for us to argue here. 

I'm sorry but there's nothing further we can do to help.

ThePOGG

Hi also I only want my deposits back and they are not losing anything, they have treated me terrible and I will not recommend anyone to use any of the sites, they have out and out lied!

Hi emjemz,

You are only entitled to the return of funds after the point where the operator could be reasonably expected to have identified that you were 'at risk', not all deposits. Having reviewed the correspondence logs and compared this with the account balances you've already received all of the funds you are entitled to.

I'm sorry but there's nothing further we can do to help you.

ThePOGG

Well just because they say it that's it! This is a absolute joke! They have lied and u are doing nothing about it! I can't believe they can just close your account when they want and say yeah u have a problem, why didn't they close before they messed me about and took even more?! I'm going to keep going with this it's not fair at all!! I lost and it's like oh well go away we have your money and u have no way of recovering any of it! Because I'm a good player and they didn't like my bets this is so wrong

And please ask for evidence of my exclusion from last year?? I'm even more sure now I did, i wasn't awythey we're connected, they are telling u lies.

Hi emjemz,

If you have evidence to support your claims we're absolutely willing to review it, but the operator have already provided a very significant amount of documentation to support their position and we have nothing but your word to support your claims.

The simple facts are that any operator can close your account at any time for any reason that is non-discriminatory in nature. They are private companies and are not legally required to accept your custom. Simply not wanting your business is enough. In this instance the operator has chosen to to restrict you from accessing their services because of significant concerns about a potential gambling problem but they could have closed your account based on any of hundreds of other reasons.

I'm sorry you're unhappy with the outcome of this case but without supporting evidence we cannot simply take your word for it that you're due thousands of pounds in the face large volumes of documentation that contradicts this position. There was no 'taking their word for it', they were required to provide supporting documentation and records to back up each and every claim for each account.

ThePOGG

They are not legally allowed to take my custom?? Is this illegal??? They have conned me and said right we know your gonna win big so we will close your accounts, how is this fair gaming at all??? I've got no evidence of the £3800 in my account apart from my eyes! Ask them for the history as I can't see cause I've been excluded! And £550 from casilando??? I've just got to say oh well when I won fair and square??? This is so wrong!!! I'm going to get my solicitor and see what my options are this is crazy!

Hi emjemz,

They are not legally REQUIRED to take your custom. A very different thing not ALLOWED. And yes, any private business can turn you away at any time for any reason. No business is forced to accept any person's custom as long as the reasons for declining the customer is non-discriminatory (i.e. you can't refuse to serve someone based on their race, religion, sex etc etc).

There's no mathematically valid reason to believe that you were "gonna win big". This requires either non-random software/games or a mistaken belief that you become more likely to win if you've been losing previously.

Finally, as stated several times, I already have your account histories for ALL of your accounts. The last time your G'Day balance was above £3k was on the 20th of May at 03:07:26 server time when you were playing Live Blackjack. This balance was played to zero the same day. 

You are free to take whatever legal advice you see fit, but short of some supporting evidence for your claims our involvement in this issue has to come to a close.

ThePOGG

Having reviewed all communications and transaction history, White Hat Gaming have acted appropriately in restricting this player.

It's for casilando casino, gday casino, Miami dice casino, the WHG group, they have closed all my accounts saying I have a gambling problem?! They owe me £220 from Miami dice and £1200 from gday casino, and £550 from casilando, if they are going to close my accounts and not pay me what I'm owed I would like the £12000 deposits from the month of May back, u can't just say oh well go away now! That would not happen in a real casino! I'm so angry by this, I contacted ecogra and they say it's a responsible gambling issue and gave me the link here, they have excluded me and say that's it! This is so unfair the lady emailing me was [EDIT], please help me get my deposits back they are rip off merchants!!

G'Day - Closing accounts

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