Tobwin

VISA

Hi seanysean8,

I've had a quick look at the Tobwin rules and as far as I can see you're absolutely right, though I would stress that they've not actually changed any rules.

I've reviewed the terms and conditions on the Tobwin website. The terms and conditions on the sign-up bonus page are somewhat ambigious, stating only that the wagering requirement on the sign-up bonus is 40x for the first deposit and 30x for the next 3. 40x leaves room for interpretation as to 40x what and understandably the player would want to interpret that in a way that favours them so good practice dictates that this should be clarified.

This however is clarified in the general term and conditions where across all different sections, where wagering requirements are discussed they are always discussed in as 30xbonus balance (including for the sign-up bonus);

"For Players who receive a first deposit or sign up bonus, a minimum of 30 times the bonus balance must be wagered prior to making a withdrawal from their Cash account."

I've recorded a video of all relevant terms this morning for the sake of completeness;

[VIDEO]

Before I can approach Tobwin, I need you to provide me your username and the email address you use with the casino. I also need you to forward on any relevant correspondence you've had with Tobwin to webmaster@thepogg.com.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Originally posted on the 8th of April

Hi ThePOGG,

I will forward on the relevant emails now.

My email address is [EDIT] and my username is
seanysean8. I made 3 deposits totalling 800 and I tried to withdraw
1,566.5.

[EDIT]

Originally posted on the 8th of April

Hi seanysean8, 

Having reviewed the email conversation that you've sent over, it turns out that I've missed a term. As the Tobwin rep correctly asserts, there is indeed a term within the Bonus Account section that states;

14. "All Wager requirement refer to deposit + bonus (db)"

Now I have spent some time today trying to establish when that term was added. Unfortunately, no one has requested that this specific page be monitored at the change detection service I use resulting in no record there. Alongside this, I checked with all of the major search engines to have a look at any available cached versions of the page. Unfortunately this url doesn't appear in any of the search engine indexes, suggesting that either Tobwin have specifically requested that the page not turn up in
> search results, though there may be other reasons for this. Finally I checked with Way Back Machine, but the only results I could find there were from 2012 and far too old to be of use here. The bottom line here is that there is nothing to suggest that this term was added after your play and as such really no argument for you not to complete the full wagering requirement. What I can and will do however is contact Tobwin regarding the lay out of their terms and conditions. While they do have a term clearly stating that all bonus wagering requirements are in the x(deposit+bonus) format, it would be very easy for a less than eagle eyed player to only see the "30 times the bonus balance" part that is listed in other locations more relevant to the sign-up bonus. This is very poor practice and most certainly serves to mislead players. As such I'll be looking to have this issue addressed. 

ThePOGG

Originally posted on the 8th of April

Hi ThePOGG,

Luckily I took a screenshot of the terms when I signed up to the casino as this is not the first time a casino has tried to pull a fast one. I have attached the screenshot of the terms and have subsequently signed up to your T&amp;C monitoring service which looks like it will be very useful. What is strange is that Term 14 is blank in the screenshot I have provided. I understand this may look suspicious, but I have not tampered with the screenshot. There are other differences between the old terms and the new terms so hopefully this re-assures that I have not tampered with the screenshot.

[EDIT]

Originally posted on the 8th of April

Since we closed this complaint in favour of the player this issue has escalated substantially.

At the bottom of this post I'm going to post a full transcript of a conversation with Tobwin's casino manager. Within the conversation the Tobwin manager accepts that the terms were wrong, yet after the conversation goes on to force the player complete the additional wagering anyway.

After the player completes the wagering, Tobwin's manager tells them that they're not wanting to pay until the player gets the negative report on this site taken down. To be clear player's have absolutely no control over the content posted on this site after they submit it. Moreover, as Tobwin did not rectify the issue, instead forcing the player to comply with their erroneous terms, there was nothing invalid about the complaint and no reason to take it down. We consider this blackmail and the casino had no right to withhold the player's funds in the first place. 

Nevertheless we removed the complaint on a temporary bases to allow the player to appear to comply with this request with the intention of reposting after the player received their funds. Hardly surprising after the above behaviour but Tobwin still did not pay the player.

While this was going on the player contacted Tobwin's supposed regulator in Curacao only to be informed that the license seal this casino was displaying was fraudulent.

Curacao licenses display on the domain gaminglicenses.com but the Tobwin license displayed on igaminglicenses.com and was a mock up of what a real Curacao license page would look like.

The final piece in this sorry tale would come when we contacted Tobwin's software provider Betsoft about a casino with a fraudulent license offering their games. I have to offer huge kudos to Betsoft for their professionalism and integrity. Within 4 hours of being informed of this issue they had investigated, corroborated the information we'd submitted and pulled Tobwin's access to their real play games (with free play to follow shortly afterwards). 

All in all you could not get a more classic picture of a rogue operation and while I'm happy to see this casino down, I'm sorry that we couldn't do more to help the player retrieve their funds.

ThePOGG




ThePOGG

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">I'm the owner of ThePOGG.com. We've just received a complaint about Tobwin casino from one of the players that uses our site. As one of the main functions of ThePOGG.com is to resolve disputes between players and casinos, we were looking to make contact with the relevant individual to discuss this issue. We provide a private forum where the player, casino rep and site admin can discuss the issue and work towards an amicable solution. As the conversation is carried out in private, once the authorized individual gets in contact I will provide them with log in details so that they can access the complaint.

As with all customer complaint situations, the quicker a representative can be seen to respond to the issue the more likely a positive resolution is. 

I look forward to hearing from you and if you have any questions regarding our mediation process, please don't hesitate to get in contact.

ThePOGG</blockquote>

Tobwin

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">Hi 
what complain ?</blockquote>


ThePOGG

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">Hi there,

The users details are as follows;

Username - [EDIT]
Email - [EDIT]

The complaint (which I've attached in full at the bottom of this email) revolves around the wagering requirement as defined in your terms and conditions. The player has completed the 30xbonus wagering requirement that the terms and conditions stipulate, but has been told that they have to complete 30x(deposit+bonus) as is specifically referenced in point 14 of the Bonus Account Terms and Conditions ("All Wager requirement refer to deposit + bonus (db). Currently the Tobwin terms and conditions contradict this term in several places that make this an extremely problematic position for Tobwin casino to take;

From the Sign-Up bonus terms and conditions page (hxxp://tobwin.com/en/welcome_package);


<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"A 100% match first-deposit bonus (“First-Deposit Bonus”) on the player’s first real money deposit in the casino for up to a maximum bonus of €200 - Wagering requirements: 40x
A 25% second-deposit bonus (“Second-Deposit Bonus”) on the player’s second real money deposit in the casino, for up to a maximum bonus of €100.- Wagering requirements: 30x
A 50% third-deposit bonus (“Third-Deposit Bonus”) on the player’s third real money deposit in the casino, for up to a maximum bonus of €100. - Wagering requirements: 30x
A 25% fourth-deposit bonus (“Fourth-Deposit Bonus”) on the player’s fourth real money deposit in the casino, for up to a maximum bonus of €100. - Wagering requirements: 30x"</blockquote>

From the general casino terms and conditions page (hxxp://tobwin.com/en/terms.html);

Point 4.1 of the General Promotion Terms and Conditions;

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"In the interest of avoiding any confusion related to promotions and any winnings transferred to the Real account, the Player agrees to commit to the following wagering requirements. These include:Doubling up on any game at Tobwin Casino will not count towards your wagering requirements. All Aces Video Poker - please be aware that this game will not count towards wagering requirements and no loyalty points will be earned when playing.
The Player's deposit may be cashed-in, providing any minimum bet requirements associated with redeemed bonuses have been satisfied.
Bonus amounts credited to a Player's bonus account are subject to 30 times play-through before they may be cashed in."</blockquote>

Clearly states "Player's bonus account are subject to 30 times play-through before they may be cashed in". This language stipulates only 30xbonus wagering requirement, though I would concede that it's too vague to be 100% clear. It is however supported by the following term from the Cash Account Terms and Conditions;

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"For Players who receive a first deposit or sign up bonus, a minimum of 30 times the bonus balance must be wagered prior to making a withdrawal from their Cash account. Please note, as a Player's bonus balance clears from their bonus account to their cash account the wagering required to withdraw from the cash account will also decrease. For example:
If a Player receives a $100 bonus, they will have to wager approximately $3000 based on a game with 100% wagering contribution (e.g. Slots and Parlor Games) before attempting a withdrawal.
Similarly, they will have to wager $6000 based on a game with a 50% wagering contribution (e.g. Table Poker, Casino War, Sic Bo) and so on."</blockquote>

The above example clearly shows the wagering requirement for the sign-up bonus being calculated on a 30xbonus formula not 30x(deposit+bonus) [see point 1.1 above - 30x100 = $3000].

Alongside the above contradictions of the Bonus Account Terms and Conditions point 14, the player has provided screen shot evidence that is indicative that point 14 of the Bonus Account Terms and Conditions was not added until after the point where the player had accepted the bonus. Their evidence demonstrates a rather short time frame where the term could have been added and still apply to this player, so it would be very helpful if you could clarify exactly when this term was added.

Thanks for your time and I look forward to your response.

ThePOGG</blockquote>



Tobwin

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">Hi

He need to complete the wagering requirements as in the t&c . Deposit + deposit x30 .

Like we tell him in the emails from our support .

If the t&c are clear enough will ready to replace them.

This player have more than 700 euros in bonuses the only thing we were asking from him is to complete his wagering requirements . He is standing on aroud 5140 an he need to play till 9000 .

Best regards</blockquote>



ThePOGG

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">Hi,

It's not simply that your terms aren't clear enough, they are flat out wrong! You give an example of how to calculate the wagering requirement and the example uses 30xbonus. No player can be expected to understand that you mean 30x(d+b) when you show them how to calculate the wagering requirement incorrectly. More significant than the mistake itself, the mistake agrees with what is stated elsewhere in the terms and conditions. The short story here is that the casino is wrong and the player is right. 

If you want to change your terms and conditions, I'll be happy to help re-write them to ensure that they are consistent, clear and fair, but this player cannot be held to the additional wagering requirement.

It also really concerns me that the rule that's being enforced (30x(d+b)) was clearly added very recently (within weeks of this issue arising that much I can prove via a screenshot that has passed security verification processes to show it was not tampered with), yet the player has been told that the rule was on the terms and conditions page "for a long time" by your casino manager. 

Between the recent addition of the term and the conflicting nature of the examples given within the terms there's simply no justification for requiring the player to play the additional wagering. 

Thanks and best regards.

ThePOGG</blockquote>


Tobwin

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">Hi - I'm following up on the conversation we had yesterday regarding the player complaint posted at ThePOGG.com. 

I appreciate that this may not have been an instance of intentionally misleading/conflicting terms, but that lack of care has damaged player experience and as the situation currently stands there's simply no way that I could support Tobwin's stance. 

If your final decision has been reached, I need you to forward a statement for publication with the complaint report, otherwise I need you to get back to me regarding what action you intend to take.

Thanks</blockquote>

ThePOGG



<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">This is our last attempt to reach Tobwin Casino about this issue. Further lack of response will result in the complaint being marked 'Found for the Player' and Tobwin Casino being listed as 'Not Recommended'.

Hi - I'm following up on the conversation we had last week regarding the player complaint posted at ThePOGG.com. </blockquote>


Tobwin
 
<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">Comment [Copy of previous email]</blockquote>



ThePOGG

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">I've already responded to that statement and demonstrated how you are provably and legally wrong. If you want to go forward with a statement that's so easily dismissed as erroneous, I'm happy to accommodate that, but you only damage Tobwin's credibility by doing so. 

Your contract at the time the player signed up was inconsistent. In fact the player's interpretation of your terms is far more logically consistent given that "30xbonus" is referenced in several locations throughout your terms, including the example of how to calculate the wagering requirement, than your own interpretation which only appears once, away from the bonus specific terms. When added to that the verified evidence that we have (and will be publishing) showing that this term was added in close proximity to the time of play, Tobwin come off looking very very bad.

And significantly you still haven't fixed the problems with the terms despite having the issue clearly pointed out to you.

The bottom line is that so far you're handling of this issue has been substandard in every respect and if that doesn't change immediately we will be listing you as 'Not Recommended' from this point forward. The point of our mediation service is to provide constructive feedback for both parties - ignoring the issues won't make them go away.

Regards

ThePOGG</blockquote>




Tobwin Manager

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"Hi 
Since you can provide any evidence of us replacing the terms and condition on our site before and after you hereby request replace the title of the complain ASAP.

Thanks in advance"</blockquote>



ThePOGG

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"In this instance I don't feel the title is misleading and the article details exactly what the issues of the case is. And by the way I do have evidence via verified screen shots that you did in fact change your terms. 

Sorry, but it won't be changed. You chose this hostile relationship."</blockquote>


Tobwin Manager

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"Can you send this screen shot plz"</blockquote>



ThePOGG

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"Nameless Tobwin representative, answer a question for me - why should I cooperate with you when you've shown utter contempt for your players, your contracts and my site? I approached you with a completely reasonable complaint, demonstrated where and why you were wrong and you didn't even show the decency to discuss the issue or show basic manners. Now, when I publish a report that reflects that complaint and the actions you took, you suddenly want to talk.

If you want my cooperation you're going to have to make a gesture of good faith. For starters you can go and fix your terms and conditions so that you don't end up screwing over more of your players with deceptive terms. When you've done that I'll be happy to provide you with said screenshot."</blockquote>


Tobwin Manager

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"You can leave it like this I just see that you post complan about [EDIT] casino and you still advertise tham on your home page.

So your site is not serious and not reliable and if I saw that I'm sure that all your user to.

Good luck"</blockquote>



ThePOGG

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"You represent a casino that can't even write up a correct set of terms and conditions - you'll excuse me I don't take your opinion too seriously."</blockquote>


Tobwin Manager

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"Its ok :) i dont think you better then any casino owner . You love money like all ppl even in the price of very big conflict of your site concept.

$ is the winner again.

No hard feeling mate."</blockquote>



ThePOGG

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"I hold the highest standards on the web and I've got $150k returned to players and 100s of satisfied players who are happy with the treatment they've received from the casinos I recommend. The one case you raise is a likely fraud case so I've not felt the need to crucify the casino for it. Their ratings were reduced proportionately (Trustworthiness reduced from 8/10 to 6/10). If more similar cases come in I'll act accordingly.

You can question my integrity all you like, but you'd need to have some for your questions to be credible.

What is very telling is that you've admitted there's problems with your terms and conditions, but you've still done nothing to address them. It's honestly beyond me why you haven't just fixed them to help protect yourself from player complaints. At least that would have to be reflected accurately in the report. Of course you're going to end up with players complaining when you can't even give an accurate example of how to calculate your wagering requirements. Your leaving yourself wide open to situations like this."</blockquote>

Tobwin Manager

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">Okay no problem I agree with you.

I know its a bad timing but I would like to know if you have free spots for us on your home page .

Of course after we change the terms and condition .

Best regards</blockquote>

ThePOGG

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">Hi - if you're serious about listening to feedback and responding appropriately I'll be happy to help you however I can. I appreciate that we've not got off to the best of starts but at the end of the day as long as the problems get fixed I'm happy.

The mistakes in the terms and conditions would need to be addressed and to be frank I think that steps need to be taken to offer the player a reasonable solution. At the end of the day they are right when they say that the terms they saw were at the very least misleading.

Unlike every other affiliate site I know of, I don't sell space on ThePOGG. The casinos that appear on the homepage do not pay a premium for being there. They are on the homepage because they are the highest rated casinos listed on the site based on geographic location (geotargetting meaning that you see [EDIT] on the homepage where I don't right now as there are 10 higher rated casinos for player from the UK, where I'm accessing the site from). Getting a high rating is as simple a meeting the various rating standards and ensuring that player complaints - if they occur - are approached appropriately.

Simply put, I choose to make less money by not charging for the homepage places to minimise the conflict of interest in advertising casinos and representing players. If I could run the site without taking money from casinos at all I would, but there isn't a workable business model I've been able to find that would allow me to do that.

As such I can't promise you a place on the homepage. What I can do is arrange for a review of Tobwin to be placed and do what I can to help you ensure that you get the best rating possible. It does take time to work up the rankings - new casinos are always rated lower for 6-12 months during the test period - but if you work with me the Tobwin rating will reflect that in the end.

Let me know how/whether you want to move forward.</blockquote>

Fortunately I can make this comment of truth because I'm not white: 

Such poor English on the part of the Tobwin manager demonstrates absolute unprofessionalism. 

I would have lost my patience with him the moment I saw the "Hi, what complain?"

Politically correct bullcrap aside, not a single reputable, professional casino upper management/PR agent uses absolutely broken English. That's just a simple fact.

And while I can get away with being politically incorrect since once again I'm not white, I'd like to also throw in there that  business ethics is NOT the same around the world. People from some parts of the world tend to think scamming is acceptable. Another reason to be suspicious when the operator speaks extremely broken English. Especially if you can identify his accent to be associated with a culture that has patterns of bad business ethics!

Hey Lepton,

While I can't and won't comment on quality of the Tobwin manager's English - I've met and conversed with several people in the industry that I consider to be of quality that spoke/wrote less than perfect English, and likewise I've dealt with many English as a first language speakers who have been dodgy or could barely communicate in the written form - the brevity of the initial response showed a complete lack of interest. There was no attempt at maintaining any form of professional decorum in that initial contact and while it's my job to manage that, it did concern me right from the start.

ThePOGG

Caught running a casino under a fraudulent license and shut down by their software provider, Tobwin casino ripped off this player and have been Blacklisted

Hello,
 
 I signed up at Tobwin Casino a few weeks ago and made a few deposits until I got lucky and won some money. I had received a bonus as part of their welcome package and kept playing until I had played the bonus 30 times as advertised on the website.
 
 When I went to withdraw there was a long delay after I had submitted my documents and the casino replied that I had to play through my deposit AND bonus 30 times. I pointed out that their website displayed 30 times bonus when I signed up and played at the casino but they refused to change their decision.
 
 I was very careful to read the terms and conditions before signing up to the casino as there is lots of small print which you must abide by. The casino changed the terms and conditions displayed after I submitted my withdrawal which does not seem fair, this enables them to change the terms at any time they like to suit them, and in this case save them from paying out a winner.
 
 I would be grateful if you could look into this matter for me.
 
 Originally posted on the 7th of April.

Tobwin - Casino change the rules when you win

To submit an online gambling complaint, register a new account or log in.

Create account

Log in

Got a complaint about a gambling site?

Casino Review Site Logo

Log out

Account

Title

Complaint Details

Posted By

Disputed amount

Date raised

Date closed

Player’s Complaint

To protect the privacy of our users, all personally identifiable information has been redacted. If you see anything we've missed contact us at complaints@casinoreviews.com.

Player's Complaint

Player Complaint Responses

Complaint Title

This complaint may have been archived. If you are looking for information about your complaint, please contact us at complaints@casinoreviews.com

This link is no longer valid

Dynamic Single Complaint 

Default

IGT DE

All British Casino UK

Playtech ZA

Bank Transfer CA

Online Casinos UK

Cookie Policy DE

PayPal

Neteller UK

Spin Casino

ecoPayz IE

King Billy Casino CA

Free Spins IN

Casinos en vivo PE

Terms of Use DE

Mirax Casino CA

Oasis Poker

Hellspin Casino NZ

Roulette ZA

Rizk Casino IE

Bonos de Casino

ecoPayz UK

Live Casinos AT

IGT NZ

Yabby Casino IE

Casinos Online CL

Condiciones de uso MX

Dave Ellefson - Founding member of Megadeth

African Grand ZA

GrandWin Casino

Mirax 

Bank Transfer ZA

Guts Casino CA

Ken Smith Blackjack Tournament Expert

Diamond7 Casino 

Casino Games IN

Visa CA

bCasino.co.uk – A UK licensed operator with ties to the black market?

New Casinos IN

21Prive Casino

Queen Vegas NZ

All Complaints

Visa ZA

King Billy Casino

Skrill CA

PayPal NZ

500 Deposit NZ

32Red Casino

Paysafecard DE

Responsible Gambling IN

Casino War

21Red Casino

Game Providers UK

Qbet Casino

ecoPayz CH

Quickfire

Zahlungsmethoden CH

Ruleta CO

Betway Casino NZ

888 Casino

PayPal IE

Arctic Casino NZ

JackpotCity Casino Ontario

Responsible Gambling UK

Aristocrat

Microgaming DE

888 Casino CA

Grosvenor Casino

100 Deposit NZ

Online Casinos IE

Mirax NZ

Starda Casino IN

Casumo Casino Ontario

Bank Transfer IN

Wazamba Casino CA

Betsson CO

Baccarat CA

Vegas Crest NZ

Red Stag Casino IE

Live Casinos NZ

Casumo Casino NZ

KingdomAce Casino

Mobile Casinos

CasinoLuck

Dinero real

Blackjack MX

Playtech DE

Visa IN

SlotsMagic Casino NZ

Bizzo Casino CL

Craps UK

Boku ZA

WSM Casino CA

888 Casino Ontario

Slots UK

Cobra Casino NZ

JackpotCity Casino IE

Cobber Casino AT

Política de privacidad MX

Whistleblowing Policy

Baccarat IE

Casino4u AT

Juegos de Casino CO

Casino Classic NZ

Casino Bonus AT

VIP Casinos CH

Contacta con nosotros CL

Ultra Casino NZ

Royal Panda Casino

Bally ZA

Wildz Casino Ontario

Neue Casinos DE

Bitcoin AT

Best Payout casinos NZ

Dinero real MX

Jackpot Village Casino

Villento Casino

Wazamba Casino

Zaza Casino

Interac 

Playtech CA

Fresh Casino

Casino Games ZA

Spielautomaten CH

Fresh Casino IN

Quickfire NZ

Izzi Casino CA

LuckyWins NZ

Beste Auszahlungen in Casinos DE

Euro Palace Casino NZ

Ladbrokes Casino

Spielautomaten AT

Payment Methods

IGT IN

Neteller

SpinBetter Casino NZ

Bally CH

Aristocrat UK

Bank Transfer

New Casinos UK

Locowin Casino CA

Guides

Roulette CH

Fresh Casino PE

PlayNGo DE

Nuevos casinos PE

WinsRoyal Casino NZ

VIP Casinos

New Casinos IE

CasinoVibes Casino CA

Real Money ZA

Conquestador Casino CA

Bonos de Casino PE

Konami ZA

Turbico Casino

Affiliate Edge and retroactive term changes

Slots IN

NetEnt IE

Evolve Casino NZ

CasinoReviews PE

$5 Deposit Casinos NZ

King Billy Casino NZ

Barcrest ZA

Casino Bonuses IE

Miami Dice Casino

Novomatic DE

888 Casino NZ