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Hi kongdasavage,

As we are the ADR for the White Hat Gaming license under the Malta Gaming Authority license there is certain information we have to provide you now.

You can find all the relevant information about this service here – http://thepogg.com/terms-of-use/ and the terms of use for our complaint service here - https://thepogg.com/terms-of-use-for-dispute-resolution-service/

To summarise.

– Use of this service does not preclude your seeking redress through court proceedings .

– This service is free to use for both the complainant and operator.

– At any point during the procedure the submitting party retains the right to withdraw their complaint. This does not preclude our right to continue the discussion with the involved operator of general issues related to the complaint (i.e. insufficiently clear terms and conditions).
https://thepogg.com/terms-of-use-for-dispute-resolution-service/

– You are not obliged to obtain independent or legal advice or representation, though you may choose to do so.

If you have any questions about the above, let me know.

I'll contact the operator and see what we can find out for you.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Whether or not Miami Dice *intended* for the maximum bet to be 50kr from the point of acceptance of the bonus or not, the facts are that:

1. Cash is used before bonus on miamidice.com
2. Confirmation proof from the live chat clarifying the terminology: in play.
3. The fact that the terms and conditions got changed after this incident.
4. Miami Dice complaint department sending me their terminology of: in play. After the incident.
5.Therefore, when the bonus was 'in play' in line with what I was told, I did not break the max bet.

Miami dice have been “playing” around with me for about 2 months now. From my experience at Miami Dice, It’s like everybody works under one management, but there is so much misunderstandings, different facts being told, not ENOUGH communication with each other on many occasions that have made my experience so much worse. About the 10k offer, literally unbelievable. I have to put my faith in you guys at thepogg. Really hope that I can get all my legitimate winnings, worst case: the 10k.

Hi there, 2 weeks later and you guys still haven’t gotten any response...?

Hi again, it’s 10th of May and I do understand that complaints are a slow business, but the fact that I haven’t even gotten one answer or a single update on this case is absurd, it’s been a bit over a month now. 

I really do appreciate your guys help at thepogg, but when I simply ask you guys if there is an update I do believe that you SHOULD respond back to me.

Regards.

Hi kongdasavage,

I'm sorry you feel that way, but as is clearly stated at the bottom of every complaint you will only receive updates when we have new information for you. Time spent telling users 'we have no new information' is not usefully invested.

I'll revert to you when we have further information.

ThePOGG

Hi, before sending my complaint here, I sent a complaint to Casinomeister and this casino spent 1.5 month saying: “ we’re looking into this”. Couple weeks after that MaxD at Casinomeister said that he couldn’t help me and suggested that I come to you guys because they weren’t corporating with him.

This casino literally specifically said send your complaint to our ADR service on EVERY email. Now that I have done that, why are they still having a laugh mate?

Regards.

Hi kongdasavage,

Actually the operator are not delaying anything. We are discussing this issue more generally with the regulator at the present time.

Regards,

ThePOGG

Well, thank you for actually updating me.

Regards.

Hi kongdasavage,

I've concluded an extended conversation with the MGA regarding this issue and received feedback on their position.

The regulator are not satisfied - and we would agree with this position - that the terms and inadequate or unclear in regards to where and when bonus terms and conditions are applicable.

Your complaint specifically relate to where and when a bonus is 'in play', contesting that a bonus is in play only when bonus funds specifically are wagered. The regulator's opinion on this is that a bonus is 'in play' on your account from the point that bonus funds are added to your account. This is evidenced by the fact that wagers with both deposited funds and bonus funds contribute to the bonus wagering requirement - whether or not the wager has been placed using bonus funds, it impacts the underlying conditions of the bonus offer. Play with non-bonus funds still impacts the bonus, Hence the bonus is clearly 'in play' on your account

Further to this terms and conditions repeatedly reference the fact that both deposited funds and bonus funds are subject to bonus restrictions:

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">4. Wagering is 35x the total of bonus money, deposit and extra spins. Wagering must be completed before any funds can be withdrawn.</blockquote>

The above makes clear that the deposited funds are taken into consideration as part of the overall 'bonus offer' both as part of the conditions upon which the bonus requirements are set and due to the fact that the terms explicitly apply restriction to all withdrawals, not simply withdrawals involving bonus funds.

Further to this, term 5.3 reads:

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"5.3 The deposit and possible winnings connected to the bonus will be locked to the casino account until the wagering has been completed. Where promotions do allow withdrawals with an active bonus balance, at this stage, any remaining bonuses will be revoked."</blockquote>

Again this term makes clear that bonus restrictions are applicable to the entire balance unless a specific exemption is detailed in the specific promotional terms.

And again this is made clear in term 5.11:

<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"5.11 If you do not want any bonus which has been deposited into your account by us then you are entitled to request that it be reversed out of your account only if no game play has taken place since receiving that said bonus."</blockquote>

The above does not stipulate that the restriction only applies if game play with bonus funds has taken place, but explicitly stipulates that "no game play has taken place", making clear again that restrictions come into force from the moment you place a wager when a bonus is in your account.

The above being the case if you have placed bets that exceeded the maximum allowed wager while you had a bonus in play on your account the operator are within their rights to reset both parties to their starting positions.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi again, so from what I can understand from MGA perspective is basically: "You have to estimate if the bonus is sticky or no-sticky". Even if bonus funds and cash funds are stated as seperate balances the bonus is sticky, and not no-sticky. Meaning you start your wager from the moment you make a bet. When you make your deposit, and get the bonus, the bonus counts as 'in play'. Their definition of 'in play' is simply that as soon as you accepted the bonus, everything falls under the bonus rules, including the balance stated under 'cash balance'. Therefore they are in the right?

However, how am I or anybody else supposed to know that? It’s not explained in the terms. You guys even said that the terms where unclear in this regard. Also quote... from that day on February till this day the terms and conditions have changed, I don’t want to say “a lot”, but a significant amount regarding “bonus money” and “cash money”. It should absolutely be more clear. I found it very confusing and MANY casino streamers that I have talked to finds the terms and conditions to be very misleading. Here is another fact: all players are NOT “lawyers”.

Then the MGA... brings up paragraphs: “4”, “5.3” and “5.11”.

Paragraph number 4 basically states that wager is total bonus amount, deposit and extra spins, which in this case was fulfilled, no questions asked: Wagering is 35x the total of bonus money, deposit and extra spins. Wagering must be completed before any funds can be withdrawn.

Then paragraph number 5.3, this states that you’re not able to make any withdrawals until you have fulfilled your wager because the balance is locked, however it doesn’t mention ANYTHING regarding when a bonus is “inplay” and that’s the WHOLE problem with the terms and conditions, they are so misleading in a way that the casino wants to benefit from it: "5.3 The deposit and possible winnings connected to the bonus will be locked to the casino account until the wagering has been completed. Where promotions do allow withdrawals with an active bonus balance, at this stage, any remaining bonuses will be revoked."

Finally we have paragraph 5.11, which is in this case has absolutely nothing to do with the terminology “inplay”, then again writing nonsense such as: “The above does not stipulate that the restriction only applies if game play with bonus funds has taken place, but explicitly stipulates that "no game play has taken place", making clear again that restrictions come into force from the moment you place a wager when a bonus is in your account.” Once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the term “inplay”: "5.11 If you do not want any bonus which has been deposited into your account by us then you are entitled to request that it be reversed out of your account only if no game play has taken place since receiving that said bonus."

All and all, I am very disappointed with MGA and you guys. With all the misleading terms and conditions, you guys still support Miami Dice, you guys are looking at this from a only a legal point and that’s what disappointing me the most. Even though from ALL the facts that I have stated, you guys answer me with paragraphs that is even more misleading than the term “inplay”.

You guys wrote in the beginning: “Your complaint specifically relate to where and when a bonus is 'in play'”, after reading this so called “extended conversation” with MGA, my answers are not even close to be answered. This whole conversation was as I have stated more misleading than the terminology “inplay”. I really hope you guys to a better job and help me.

Hi kongdasavage,

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think it's basic and obvious that if you have a bonus in your account and any wager you make is counted towards your wagering requirements, the bonus is 'in play'. 

Term 5.3 is absolutely clear is stating that deposited funds are subject to bonus restriction. If they weren't you would be able to withdraw deposited funds prior to having completed the bonus restrictions.

Again 5.11 is self-evident - if restrictions were only applicable to play with bonus funds, placing wagers with deposited funds would not prevent you cancelling the bonus. The very fact that placing ANY wager, regardless of whether it is with deposited or bonus funds restricts withdrawals until such time as the wagering requirements are completed clearly demonstrates that bonus restrictions apply from the first wager placed, not the first wager placed with bonus funds.

The regulator agrees with this perspective and it is consistent with the management of other complaints of this nature. 

I'm sorry you are disappointed with the outcome of your complaint but there's nothing further we can do for you in this case and all I can suggest you do is ensure that you adhere to bonus restrictions any time you have had a bonus added to your account in future.

ThePOGG

So you guys are basically not going to do anything at this point?  Not even help me get the 10k that Miami dice offered, that I didn’t decline from them, but they just “assumed” that I didn’t want it, because I asked if they could pay med 60k. Seriously guys?

Hi kongdasavage,

The purpose of the ADR service is not to negotiate settlements in this instance. It is to review the details of the situation and determine which party is in the right.

However, we do from time to time look to negotiate settlements in unusual circumstances. By and large this happens where we do not have legal authority to give a ruling.

Furthermore, given that the operator offered you this 'settlement' outside of review (i.e. it was not something the proposed as a result of us approaching them), it would fall outside of the complaint review process.

Nevertheless, I would be happy to make enquiries on your behalf as to whether this offer is still open, but I would suggest that this was probably made in an effort to conclude the case. Given that you have by this case escalated the issue the operator may no longer feel it appropriate to offer a settlement and this is outside our purview to enforce.

I'll revert to you when I have further information.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi again, I asked to settle for their settlement before I escalated this case to you guys, that’s the only reason I came to you guys, it’s because they did want to be reasonable with me.  Here is the email I sent to them after they “assumed” that I rejected their offer, they have said that: “We refer to your email dated February 19, 2019 where by you rejected our goodwill offer and proposed your own settlement. Your settlement was promptly rejected and your complaint was referred to an ADR.”

Then I wrote to them the following: “Excuse me? I never rejected Miami Dice’s goodwill, I never even answered if was going to take the 10k or not, you guys didn’t even put a deadline on me.

My last email I sent to you guys, I wrote this: “ I understand that you final stance on the case is that: “I indeed violated your terms”. 
But before I do anything further on the case, I just want to know if we can make a deal and settle for more than 10000 kr. If you at Miami Dice are willing to negotiate.

Regards“

And then I followed it up with one more email: “To follow up with my last email.

On 19. February I wrote to you guys the following: “However, I am willing to accept 60 000kr in compesation for me to not take action and agreeing the matter to be closed for good.”

You answered: “Dear Mr Karim

Please note our final stance on the matter is that following a review of your account, we have found that you were indeed in breach of Clause 7(vi) of the Promotional Terms and Conditions, due to placing bets exceeding 50 NOK, while the welcome bonus was in play. 

The terms relating to this are clear and easily accessible via the Homepage, the My Account section of your Casino account, as well as the bottom of each page on our website.

Should you wish to raise your complaint further you do have the option to escalate to one of our ADR providers.

There is no charge to you for referring your unresolved dispute to either of the ADR Providers. For any referral made to an ADR Provider, the ruling reached by the ADR Provider will be considered final by all parties. 


A process description of the eCOGRA ADR service is available here: http://ecogra.org/ata/policies_procedures.php 

You can find information on and submit a compliant to The POGG here: https://thepogg.com/all-complaints/ 

Regards
Complaints Department.”

To clarify what I wrote on 19. February: “However, I am willing to accept 60 000kr in compesation for me to not take action and agreeing the matter to be closed for good.”,

I sent you guys an email 2.mars: “I understand that you final stance on the case is that: “I indeed violated your terms”. 

But before I do anything further on the case, I just want to know if we can make a deal and settle for more than 10000 kr. If you at Miami Dice are willing to negotiate.” Since you guys clearly misinterpreted what I wrote like I allegedly misread your terms and conditions,   this is starting to be very unacceptable.

After not hearing from you guys in a couple of days I contacted [EDIT] at your costumer service asking him what have happened to my case, and that I haven’t heard from you in a couple of days. He then asked me if I am going to accept the 10k that you guys were offering, I then said I sent an email to you guys asking if you guys were willing to negotiate for over 10k. He said he was going to escalate it right away. 

Couple of days later you guys sent me the same email you sent to after I asked to negotiate.

After that I did not do anything with my case, I just waited to hear others opinion on what I should do.

Today even [EDIT] on costumer service said, I have now confirmed that you agree the matter to be closed and the funds will be added as soon as possible when the complaint department gets the email.

Regards”.

Do you know understand what I am going through? It’s been 5 months now and I never, ever regretted going to casino such as Miami dice.

So don’t you dare say: “Given that you have by this case escalated the issue the operator may no longer feel it appropriate to offer a settlement and this is outside our purview to enforce.”. When I have already told you guys that I have tried to resolve this issue with the casino and tried to get the 10k offer from them. If you would have read the complaint, it’s sure says everything about their offer. :) thanks for helping though.

Hi kongdasavage,

As stated in my previous message - this DOES fall entirely outside of our remit.

i) Any settlement agreements were offered discussed outside of any action this service has taken. This was not negotiated by us.

ii) As an ADR we are specifically engaged to review the fairness of a gambling transaction. Whether or not the operator has offered a good will gesture or you have accepted said gesture has no bearing on the fairness of the gambling transaction and as such is not something we are required to provide opinion on.

iii) You have by definition already rejected this offer. The operator made an offer and defined it as their "final stance". Rather than accepting this offer you ignored the statement that this was the operator's final stance and asked for an increased payout. By again seeking to change the operator's position you are clearly not accepting it. Further to this, the operator then made clear  that the alternative was not a renegotiation of the offer, but escalation to their ADR. Again rather than inform the operator you were accepting their settlement you chose to escalate the matter to the operator's ADR. While you may not have verbally stated "I do not accept your offer", your actions have been explicitly contrary to acceptance of the offer on two separate occasions. It is more than reasonable for the operator to have concluded that you are not accepting their offer.

This is not a case of not "hav[ing] read the complaint", this is a case where your actions have made a clear statement about your position.

As stated previously, we're happy to speak to the operator to find out if they are still willing to offer this arrangement but this is not within our authority to enforce.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

...

Honestly what can I say at this point that’s going to make any difference. Talk to them then.

Hi kongdasavage

Please find below the response from Miami Dice:


<blockquote style="border: 2px solid #666;padding: 10px;background-color: #ccc">"[EDIT] rejected the goodwill gesture of kr10,000 offered on 13 February 2019 and instead requested compensation of kr60,000 in order for the matter to be considered closed; he further threatened us with bad publicity. 

We in turn responded to the player confirming that the decision taken stands, offered no further settlements and referred him to the relevant ADR's.

We regret the decision taken in this case stands and the goodwill gesture offered is no longer available. "</blockquote>

Given the above there is nothing further we can do for you.

ThePOGG

I just asked them to transfer back my deposit. I’m very disappointed by you guys, but it is what it is. Good day sir.

Hi kongdasavage,

I'm sorry to hear that you're disappointed, but this situation is straightforward. You accepted a bonus that came with rules you agreed to follow. You didn't follow them. The operator offered you a good will gesture to appease your disappointment and rather than accepting that you chose to escalate the issue to us. You were entirely entitled to escalate the issue if you felt the operator were wrong (which you obviously did), but the operator are not contractually or legally obliged to provide a good will gesture where you chose to do so.

All I can recommend you do is ensure that you do not raise your bet beyond the maximum allowed bet threshold while playing with a bonus in future.

ThePOGG

This player breached the maximum allowed bet with a bonus term and as such there is nothing that we can do to help them.

Hi there,
 
 
 I used a 50% bonus on Miami dice casino, deposited 960kr + 480kr bonus, total 1440kr. When I sent my documents and everything got verified, I requested a withdrawal of 50k, thats the max you can cash out in a week. 10th of February on Sunday, I got this email: Dear My name
 
 Your account has been found to be in breach of clause 7 (vi) of our Promotional Terms and Conditions:
 
 7 (vi) The maximum bet allowed while the Welcome Bonus is in play is NOK 50. Should You bet higher than this while the Welcome bonus is in play, the Casino reserves the right to confiscate all winnings.
 
 Therefore, your withdrawal has been cancelled, your winnings have been confiscated and your deposit of NOK 1420 has been returned to your gaming account.
 
 Regards
 Accounts Team.
 
 I only bought five respins for 77,73-154,08 kr on Book of Oz as the Excel says. My bets over 50kr were all when I was playing with cash. I never came close to the bonus balance.
 
 Therefore, the following facts are true and it in conclusive that Miami Dice were not within their rights to confiscate my winnings:
 
 1. When playing on miamidice.com, a players balance is comprised of cash balance and bonus balance.
 
 2. When a player places a wager on a game, the cash balance is used first. Only when the cash balance is zero, is the bonus used for staking as stated: in play. Also have proof that the live chat has confirmed this.
 
 3. The term Miami Dice claimed I have broken is: The maximum bet allowed while the Welcome Bonus is in play is 50kr.
 
 4. According to YOUR terms, and with all evidence presented, I am in the right. It is YOUR fault for not making the correct distinction in the terms if Miami Dice Casino intended otherwise. Cash balance is used first, and THEN the bonus balance. Therefore wagers above 50kr on cash balance can be made. I have followed terms exactly regardless of the Book of Oz bets. If Miami Dice Casino intended the cash balance to be part of my bonus then that should have been reflected in the terms, which in this case, was not.
 
 Confirmation proof from Live Chat:
 [EDIT]
 
 After of couple of days they responded: Following a review of your account, we have found that you were indeed in breach of Clause 7(vi) of the Promotional Terms and Conditions, due to placing bets exceeding 50 NOK, while the welcome bonus was in play.
 
 With that in mind, we always wish our players a pleasant and entertaining experience here at Miami Dice and while the decision to confiscate stands we are willing to offer you a cash goodwill gesture of 10,000 NOK these funds may be withdrawn immediately or wagered without restriction.
 
 Here is proof that I were playing during my cash balance: [EDIT].
 
 I then tried to resolve the issue by being reasonable, since they already offered me money I started to negotiate. I however never accepted or declined their 10k offer. I wanted to see if they were willingly to offer me more since I absolutely was convinced and still am that it was totally wrong of them to confiscate my money. After I asked if they were willing to settle for more than 10k, I did not get an answer for over a week.
 
 I then got the same exact email from them after writing them 3 emails: As advised on February 21, 2019: Please note our final stance on the matter is that following a review of your account, we have found that you were indeed in breach of Clause 7(vi) of the Promotional Terms and Conditions, due to placing bets exceeding 50 NOK, while the welcome bonus was in play.
 
 Should you wish to raise your complaint further you do have the option to escalate to one of our ADR providers.
 
 It was totally hopeless trying to resolve the issue with the casino.
 
 I spent couple of weeks after that trying to get advises from casino streamers, I talked to the two biggest atm and they said:
 
 Miami states the welcome bonus is the entire thing - so once you take the offer, you are under the welcome bonus, and wagering. So a sticky bonus. Were it No-sticky, then you wouldnt have started wagering until you dropped down to bonus balance if you did. Were you wagering? If you were the cash balance was part of the bonus. But again, their terms make a clear distinction between cash balance and bonus balance.
 
 You did accept the welcome offer though, and apparently according to their terms the bonus was in play. Its just that they have written it down confusing and poorly making a distinction like that.
 
 I believe if they say this: (vi) The maximum bet allowed while the Welcome Bonus is in play is 5€. Should You bet higher than this while the Welcome bonus is in play, the casino reserves the right to confiscate all winnings.
 
 They basically mean while you are under the bonus, or have an active bonus. depends on the definition of in play. Its just they write it in a confusing way. But see what they say there, else try to get a fair share of your cashout out of goodwill.
 
 Since the casino didnt want to be reasonable with me, I decided to take their 10k offer since there was no hope left in it for me.
 
 I sent them an email:
 Hi there, I just talked to [EDIT] at your customer service.
 
 He sent you guys my final decision, but told me if I wrote here it will be dealt with quicker.
 
 I will now accepts your guys offer and take the 10000kr + my deposit of 960kr, now I accept the matter to be closed and we both can be happy.
 
 Your dearest.
 
 Couple of hours later that day I got an email from them:
 
 We refer to your email dated February 19, 2019 where by you rejected our goodwill offer and proposed your own settlement. Your settlement was promptly rejected and your complaint was referred to an ADR.
 
 We do consider this matter to be closed, however should you remain dissatisfied you do still have the option to escalate the matter further.
 A process description of the eCOGRA ADR service is available here: http://ecogra.org/ata/policies_procedures.php
 
 Further to your email we can confirm that your deposits to the value of 1,420.00 NOK were returned to your casino account following your confiscation.
 
 Regards
 Complaints Team.
 
 I quickly responded back:
 
 On 19. February I wrote to you guys the following: However, I am willing to accept 60 000kr in compesation for me to not take action and agreeing the matter to be closed for good.
 
 You answered: Dear [EDIT]
 
 Please note our final stance on the matter is that following a review of your account, we have found that you were indeed in breach of Clause 7(vi) of the Promotional Terms and Conditions, due to placing bets exceeding 50 NOK, while the welcome bonus was in play.
 
 The terms relating to this are clear and easily accessible via the Homepage, the My Account section of your Casino account, as well as the bottom of each page on our website.
 
 Should you wish to raise your complaint further you do have the option to escalate to one of our ADR providers.
 
 There is no charge to you for referring your unresolved dispute to either of the ADR Providers. For any referral made to an ADR Provider, the ruling reached by the ADR Provider will be considered final by all parties.
 
 A process description of the eCOGRA ADR service is available here: http://ecogra.org/ata/policies_procedures.php
 
 You can find information on and submit a compliant to The POGG here: https://thepogg.com/all-complaints/
 
 Regards
 Complaints Department.
 
 To clarify what I wrote on 19. February: However, I am willing to accept 60 000kr in compesation for me to not take action and agreeing the matter to be closed for good.
 
 I sent you guys an email 2.mars: I understand that you final stance on the case is that: I indeed violated your terms.
 
 But before I do anything further on the case, I just want to know if we can make a deal and settle for more than 10000 kr. If you at Miami Dice are willing to negotiate. Since you guys clearly misinterpreted what I wrote like I allegedly misread your terms and conditions, this is starting to be very unacceptable.
 
 After not hearing from you guys in a couple of days I contacted [EDIT] at your costumer service asking him what have happened to my case, and that I havent heard from you in a couple of days. He then asked me if I am going to accept the 10k that you guys were offering, I then said I sent an email to you guys asking if you guys were willing to negotiate for over 10k. He said he was going to escalate it right away.
 
 Couple of days later you guys sent me the same email you sent to after I asked to negotiate.
 
 After that I did not do anything with my case, I just waited to hear others opinion on what I should do.
 
 Today even [EDIT] on costumer service said, I have now confirmed that you agree the matter to be closed and the funds will be added as soon as possible when the complaint department gets the email.
 Regards.
 
 I am just lost for words and hope you guys at thepogg can help me out.

Miami Dice - confiscated 100k NOK.

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