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Found for the Player - 21 Grand have agreed to clarify the their terms and conditions regarding what constitutes 'system play', but they are adamant that they will not pay the player's win as they used the Martingale progression.
It should be clearly stated that the Martingale progression does not offer the player any mathematically advantage over the house by itself.
My situation is this;
I played in 21 Grand Casino. Started on 14th of September.
I made two deposits:
I started with Roulette using method Martingale. I played some slot machines as well.
During few days I won €400.
I placed a request for withdrawal, sent all documents and waited.
Yesterday I got phone call from casino.
[EDIT] explained me that they won’t pay my winnings because I used a strategy that is against their regulations and she said I played against the rule 6.3
I asked if they can return me my deposits and she said that all she can do is return me second transaction 36 EUR and give me some extra bonus.
GENERAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF 21 GRAND CASINO
6. RULES OF PLAY
6.1. In addition to these Terms and Conditions certain Rules of Play shall apply to you and be binding upon you in respect of your participation at the Casino.
6.2. You hereby agree to be bound by the aforementioned Rules of Play as if they were specifically incorporated into these Terms and Conditions.
6.3. The casino reserves the right to void any winnings if player is suspected of fraud or fraudulent activity or if it is determined by the casino management that the player made use of computer systems, system play/wagering such as card counting e.g., including machine, computers and fraudulent software.
I asked [EDIT] from casino if she can write everything what I did wrong and email me. And she was like "No we will not write anything to you" and that was the reason I suspected that they aren’t being fair.
Is using Martingale method really illegal?
Thank you for your help,
Ps. I would like to upload some files.
Apologies for the delays.
Due to some serious server issues we lost your complaint and I've been out of action for the last couple of weeks. As such I've had to repost your complaint - I'll email your new password to you shortly.
To update this issue, I'm due to speak with someone in the 21 Grand management team in the next few days.
I would like to emphasize at this point that the delays with this conversation have been entirely on my part and this would have been taken care of last week if I hadn't had urgent issues that had to be dealt with.
How are things going :)
If you need anything from me (to resend you mails, info etc....) please let me know. OK?
I've spoken to 21 Grand casino management today and I'm sorry to say that the result is not what I'd hoped for.
While 21 Grand have agreed to return your deposits and were very complimentary about your comportment and personality, they are refusing to pay the win as they feel that you've broken a clearly stipulated term by using the Martingale progression.
21 Grand have agreed to clarify the specific term - 6.3 - to ensure that the term 'system' is is altered to allow players to know exactly what types of behaviour is prohibited.
While I would positively comment on 21 Grand's management being as accommodating as they were about this discussion - their Casino Manager put aside nearly an hour today for this discussion - and I do feel that their willingness to listen and engage in improving their terms is highly encouraging, there is simply no way I can agree with this decision.
While there is some ambiguity about the Martingale progression being classed as a "system" - there is little doubt that it is one of best known betting systems - there is greater ambiguity in my mind as to what "system play" means. Simply put, flat betting could be considered a system. Increasing your bet every time a even number comes out could be considered a system. In fact literally any form of play could be considered a system.
Further to this, given 21 Grand's acceptance that the rule would benefit from clarification, I can't see any reasonable justification for asserting that the rule was clear enough to justify seizure of funds.
So while I would agree that it's not entirely unreasonable for the casino to suggest that the Martingale progression should be considered system play and I am pleased with 21 Grand's willingness to engage with the discussion and action constructive criticism, I'm not nearly convinced that there's ample justification for denying payment in this instance. As such this complaint will be closed and marked 'Found for the Player'.
Thank you for your fast response!
It is not great info. But it is not bet also :) If they return my deposit I will be satisfied.
I have checked the casino and they corrected my balance so it is the amount of my deposit: 101 EUR.
But now I am a little bit doubtful that they will return my money to clickandbuy account.
I tried to withdraw and the note which pops up on screen is:
»ClickandBuy Unavailable - Due to current withdrawal limits, this withdrawal method is not available at the moment.«
It is the same notice with every withdraw method.
Can you please ask them if I will be able to withdraw the money and when?
Can you please be so kind and do not close my complaint before I withdraw the money before they actually return me my deposits.
I really appreciate it.
No problem at all.
Could you confirm whether you require me to contact 21 Grand or have you started the withdrawal process already?
I ask you if you contact the 21 Grand.
I tried to start withdraw process but it is impossible, when I choose Withdraw and then method (Neteller or Clickandbuy, or any other) I get the note in the screen: Due to current withdrawal limits, this withdrawal method is not available at the moment (I can send you print screen if you need one).
I have not contact them, because I think it is better not to get involve with them. I trust you can communicate with them better than me :).
I've emailed 21 Grand management and will let you know as soon as I've received a response.
I'm glad to say that katja76 has now confirmed that their deposits have now been returned.
As of this time, our terms and conditions monitoring service has not detected any changes to the discussed terms and conditions at 21 Grand.
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21 Grand - Unfair rules of play
Posted by katja76
October 2, 2013
katja76 consented for ThePOGG to act on their behalf and share the personal information that they provide to ThePOGG with the following agencies for the purposes of resolving their complaint:
October 2, 2013
Hi katja76 – thanks for getting in contact.
Having reviewed the 21 Grand terms, I can see nothing that specifically defines that using a Martingale betting progression is prohibited and without specific definition the player cannot be expected to know what a “system play” is.
I’ll contact 21 Grand and see what I can find out.