BetFTV – stalling for 19700€

Hi Eagle - welcome back!

I'll firstly contact the casino and see what I can find out. If I get no response from them I'll contact their regulator.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi Eagle,

Thanks for your email. I would appreciate it if you could forward any correspondence you've had with Fashion TV to webmaster@thepogg.com.

From the quote it appears that the operator is looking for a reason not to pay despite no clear terms having been violated.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

All correspondence forwarded on 5th of October.

This was the latest the latest development of the situation.

I have received the following email on the 3rd of October

"Dear [EDIT],

We are writing to address your concern regarding the funds generated in Fashion TV casino.

In the event that the casino believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus using different systems or strategies including but not limited to playing in a way designed solely to exploit any given bonus, then the Casino may, at its sole discretion, block, deny, suspend, withhold or withdraw any potential winning from any bonus, in such manner we deem fit and/or withhold the pay out of the proceeds of such abuse to the player in question. Where Bet FTV shall act in good faith to determine if there was actual or attempted abuse.

Regardless of the player’s provided screenshots, as per the terms and condition that the customer has accepted upon registration ‘Should the Casino deem that irregular game play has occurred with or without the use of bonus funds, the Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings and bonuses’.

After carefully examining the user’s gaming session our Fraud department has found such irregular game play, more precisely suspicious amount of wager compared to the bonus followed by an immediate withdrawal request submitted by the player.
We would like to note that in the event of any dispute, the decision of the Casino Management will be considered full and final. Participation of any player in our Welcome Package is subject to acceptance of the casino's full Terms & Conditions.
In conclusion, the said winnings are considered void by Bet FTV. You are invited to claim your initial deposit by requesting a withdrawal and after submitting the necessary documents for verification.

Thank you very much for understanding,
Sincerely"

I would like to point out once more the following - I have wagered 29587€.
The terms asked me to wager 23790 €.

Their claim is that that is a "suspicious amount, followed by a withdrawal". And that is the sole reason they're giving for not paying my winnings.

Hi Eagle,

I've now managed to establish a line of communication with FashionTV and should be discussing this issue over the next few weeks.

Bear with me.

ThePOGG

Hi Eagle,

To confirm, this contact is with the casino itself, not FTV. I have not had further communication as yet and have sent a reminder through just now.

ThePOGG

Hi Eagle,

To update you on what's been going on at this end:

After a very positive initial response from the operator assuring that they wanted to discuss and resolve any complaints about their service, as soon as we provided the details of this issue we were met with complete silence.

The operator was given until the end of last week to offer a response which they failed to do. As such on Monday I contacted our someone at eMoore to find out if the Curacao Master License holder that BetFTV were operating under was them. Unfortunately it's not, however eMoore put us in contact with a rep at Gaming Curacao, the Master License holder that is responsible for BetFTV. I will state that we've had no previous dealings with this group but their initial response seems positive and I can say that they seem to be investing significant resources in upgrading their services (website) at the moment.

However, it's come to my attention that you managed to get hold of this group before I did. Kudos for that! There do appear to be some changes going on in and around Curacao right now, but your the first player I've heard of getting a direct response.

I've given Gaming Curacao an overview of my perspective on this issue, they tell me that they've been speaking to you and I'm hoping that this issue will now iron itself out. While I realise that you have money on the line, this is an interesting test case to see how the regulator responds. Assuming that the details of this issue are as stated - that the casino simply don't like how you played rather than any actual breach of terms - it should be fairly clear cut how this should turn out.

I'd ask that you keep us updated regarding the progress of this case (I'll also follow up with the regulator) as this will impact the ratings of all operators regulated by this group.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Dear ThePogg,

Many thanks for your efforts!

Yes, I did manage to find the right licensor of BetFTV, and they are indeed on the case. I got the right ones on the second try (it wasn't easy, like you know there's more of them on Curacao).
I have mentioned that in one of the emails, on Oct 21st.

I have tried and will try everything reasonably possible. And I agree with you, this is a very interesting test on how they'll operate!

Every single detail of the case is as stated.
And I've cut out lots of other stories I've been given which they abandoned later, simply to focus better on the issue at hand.
There were plenty more, like trying to convince me that I've wagered only 13000 on half a dozen occasions, finally getting someone to confirm the correct figure (I was able to see it in my history), having them "confirm" I'd get paid then going back on that, et cetera, until they left all that behind and landed on that final email which is being looked upon right now.

I think there is legitimate hope still, as I don't think BetFTV will be going out of business.

Hi Eagle,

While I agree that I don't think BetFTV are going to go out of business, this case is less about the ability to pay and more about the legitimacy of Spirit of the Bonus fund confiscations.

I am very encouraged by the response of Gaming Curacao so far - it's a positive thing that there's been any response at all and, to be self-serving, that we have a responsive contact even if it doesn't help with this specific issue is likely to result in other players being paid which is a big big plus.

However, I've worked with most of the bodies that do anything that could be considered regulation and honestly have been met with responses ranging from allowing this type of practice (that would be unacceptable in any other industry) to reluctance to take action due to the potential damage a negative ruling could cause to the regulator's relationship with the operator.

I'm not saying all regulators are of the above disposition and even when looking at one of the situations I directly referenced above the case was ultimately satisfactorily resolved. I'm simply suggesting not getting your hopes up too far until such time as Gaming Curacao actually demonstrate their position on this issue.

ThePOGG

Yeah, I agree. Those reasons which may sway regulators to go one way or another, those finer points in the story, are very present in all cases. No matter what the situation is.
I just always believe that truth will prevail, and that is what guides me.

I like to be even more precise than mentioning "spirit of the bonus", as I think it only favors me.
BetFTV said that I had commenced, and this is a direct quote, "irregular game play, more precisely suspicious amount of wager compared to the bonus followed by an immediate withdrawal request submitted by the player". And that's the last of their stories.

Now, since they are the ones that impose the amount of wagering on me - they set the requirement to be ~23800 - and I had completed much more (~29600), any claims they have that such amount that complies with their terms entirely is "suspicious" is clearly false (and a bit absurd, tbh).
There is nothing else a player can do than uphold the T&C, and the casino surely must do the same.

And, of course, public/media attention that this has gotten, as well as mediators input, certainly helps as well.

I always manage my expectations, though. As you say, while we did get responses, this is far from over.

I would always reference the Gibraltar Gambling Commission website when considering how a regulator may respond to this issue:

Operators will not usually disclose to customers how or why they were identified as a bonus abuser, as to do so tells the abuser how to avoid being identified, but it is usually because the player already has an account with the operator or one of its associates, the player has already had the bonus or an equivalent bonus, the customer plays the bonus in non qualifying areas and/or does not meet the 'turnover rules/wagering requirements', or the player has engaged in just enough play to qualify for the bonus and then seeks to withdraw it. These actions are invariably contrary to the operator's rules, and refusing to allow the withdrawal, terminating the account and returning unspent deposits, or disqualifying the player are legitimate and reasonable ways of dealing with 'bonus abuse'.

The above is from what is supposedly one of the best regulators on the market and clearly states that complying with the contract isn't enough. As I said, this wouldn't be tolerated in any other industry. The definition of "just enough" is open to interpretation in a way that a contract is meant to prevent.

In your case I do feel that claiming that you've played "just enough" would be stretching the bounds of believability, but I have little doubt this is the road that the operator will try.

ThePOGG

Hi Eagle,

Have you had any further information from BetFTV's regulator?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

No, nothing since we last spoke.
I will give them a call about it soon, I'll aim during Curacao working hours.

I'll certainly let you know when we have something new.

Hi Eagle,

Just to let you know that I contacted Gaming Curacao today regarding the response you posted on AskGamblers.

Given the information we've seen so far I would strongly disagree with the conclusions that have been reached and I'd expressed my concerns to the regulator.

My understanding is that they've reopened your case and are reviewing again. I'll follow up with them further down the line to see whether their position changes, but at this point I'd expect it to be after the New Year before this issue reaches a resolution.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi, ThePOGG,

Yeah, that is my understanding, as well.
I have at one point sent them a long and detailed play-by-play in a Word file, with screenshots of parts of many chats and other events included, but it was at first taken as just my play-by-play (ie unsufficient) by them. Apparently they desired more proof.
I am unsure why (and it wasn't brought to my attention at the time), maybe the screenshots didn't work when embedded.

In any case, after further discussion I've emailed several more chat logs and screenshots and whatnot. The whole things.

The same ones I've e-mailed you.

I do understand it is quite possible this'll take some more time.
I am fine with that, though. I know how to be patient. If we reach a fair and reasonable conclusion, that's all that matters. A week or two here or there won't change things for me.

Hi Eagle,

I'm glad to hear you've submitted further information to Gaming Curacao for consideration. This case certainly shouldn't be closed as it has been based on what I've seen.

The issues I've raised with Gaming Curacao are as follows:

1) The wagering requirement that live chat confirmed was that found in the promotion specific terms and conditions.

2) I would agree that Live Chat cannot overrule terms and conditions, even if they give out incorrect information, but any error has to be taken into consideration when reviewing the who issue.

The current position of the operator/regulator is patently unfair. The ruling seems to be based on incomplete wagering requirements. Firstly for this to be true we have to accept that the Live Chat agent actually made a mistake here and that the general terms and conditions took precedent over the promotional terms and conditions (meaning that the promo terms would at best be considered redundant information and at worst false advertising). Even if we accept that to be true, with the consequence that you have not completed the wagering requirements, the response to this has been unfair.

Where a player breaches a promotional term (plays and excluded game or bet over a maximum allowed bet etc) no future action can undo the historical breach. In this situation a term hasn't been breach, a requirement simply has not been met yet. This can be rectified with future action. The only argument against this would be if the bonus has expired, but given that the operator has given out incorrect information, been less that proactive in their management of the situation and has take a very long time to resolve the issue, it seems unjustifiable to punish the player for delays largely caused at the operator's end.

I'll continue to talk to Gaming Curacao to support your case.

All the best,

ThePOGG

Hi Eagle,

Have you had any further response regarding this issue?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

No news, since that last re-review notice from them and the chats upload on the 14th of December.

Hi Eagle,

I've just heard back from Gaming Curacao after emailing them yesterday. They inform me that they've changed their decision and forwarded on a new proposal to you. I'd very much appreciate you updating us as to the details of the proposal.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi, ThePOGG,

I have good news. Yes, I have received a new resolution from them, about an hour ago.

They will have BetFTV reinstate my balance, and then allow me to withdraw, although they will impose the 60 times (d+b) rollover before I can withdraw.
Since I went way over the 30x (d+b) rollover initially anyway, ie I'm not that far from 60x, it's not that harsh to me.

It is not ideal, of course; but I've decided it's good still, and messaged them back I'll take it!

That's the compromise I suggested to them. Really glad that they've offered it.

If you could let me know when you've withdrawn and received your funds I'll close this complaint.

Have a great 2016!

ThePOGG

I certainly will.
Thank you!

Have a great 2016., as well!

Hi Eagle,

Have you had any success withdrawing your funds from BetFTV?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi, ThePogg,

It took them a while to restore the balance. I have subsequently completed the extra rollover.

I have requested a confirmation that all has been completed, and I'm waiting to receive it.

I'll keep you posted!

I have just gotten a confirmation, and placed a withdrawal request. The total sum at the end is 21 264€.

Thanks for the conformation Eagle - that's great news!

All the best,

ThePOGG

Dear ThePOGG,

I have to say I cannot call this "resolved" just yet... I have placed a withdrawal request, but I haven't received any funds so far.

I will update as things progress.

Apologies Eagle - I pulled the trigger on this one a little quickly.

I'm going to leave this as it is just now, but if the money doesn't come through within a week please let me know.

ThePOGG

Hi Eagle - I happened to see that FashionTV have now requested that you submit Notarized ID. I've got to be direct here and say that's very disappointing behaviour. While we will support the use of a NID requests in certain situations, given that the operator has already been effectively ruled against by their regulator this action simply appears to be an attempt to find another reason not to pay.

Please keep us updated regarding this issue.

ThePOGG

Hi, ThePOGG,

Yes, late last week they requested the verification documents.
They requested my ID, an address proof, and a skrill screenshot, which were all e-mailed right away (and I got a confirmation they've received it, although still no confirmation they've been verified).
They also requested a notarized ID. Since I happened to check my e-mail at the time of the request it was in the mail within a couple of hours and, according to the post officials, on the first plane that went their way.

I think any attempts to fabricate delays (such as this one) would do them more harm than good and do not really phase me. I agree with you, it leaves an impression that they're either throwing Hail Maries around to try to avoid paying, or just making their winners go through as awkward and unpleasant of procedures as possible. Doesn't look particularly appealing on their part.
But that's on them, it's their rep, not mine, and as long as I get paid I don't really care either way.

My shipment was supposed to arrive in 10 days. It's been over a month since I've sent it.
It still hasn't arrived, I see on the tracking service that it's stuck in Montreal and it's been there for the past two weeks.

I have therefore resent it today.

I have also found a (superexpensive) courier that advertises they'll be at their doorstep in 3 days after I send it. So I will do so tomorrow.

I will post more as it happens.

Hi Eagle,

Thanks for the update - that's rather unfortunate that your first shipment is not being delivered.

Keep me updated,

ThePOGG

Yep, indeed it is. Regular airplane connections should've reached them within 2 weeks.

...

25.1.2016. 10:20:00 Netherlands (the) AMSTERDAM INTERNATIONAL MAIL CENTRE Receive item at office of exchange (Inb)

4.2.2016. 12:48:00 Canada MONTREAL Receive item at office of exchange (Inb)

4.2.2016. 12:48:00 Canada MONTREAL Send items to customs1 (Inb)

...

That was the last of it, that's where the movement stopped.

I have now DHL-ed another copy. They claim it'll be there, in Curacao, within 72 hours - a mighty impressive feat, and quite possibly true from learning more about how they operate.

I'll know exactly when it gets there.

DHL was true to their word.
It has been 10 days since FashionTV has received my notarized ID.

I haven't heard from them in the meantime, I sent one mail and gotten only an automated reply which you get whenever you contact them.

I have alerted their regulator on Friday (it is Monday today) about all this.

Hi Eagle,

If you've not had a response from the regulator/operator by Friday please let me know and I'll chase this up.

Regarding the first courier company, are they still listing this package as being held in Canada? Have you contacted them for an explanation. I'd ask you to ensure you take any screenshot proof of the first package's status in case of future need.

All the best,

ThePOGG

Yeah, that first regular-post shipment is still in Canada.
I haven't been contacting them, I just sent another one (and then the third one via DHL).

Having a screenshot of that shipment info is no problem.
I just took one.
I doubt that can be an issue, though, and I don't care about the two slow ones that are still en route (the second one is in Amsterdam ATM btw).

The most important thing is, they (BetFTV) did get the DHL one and they signed the receipt.
Second most important thing is, they did not reply to my e-mail (still), which I sent on that same day when I saw they picked up that notarized ID copy.

We will see how it goes now.

Hi Eagle,

Have you had any further response from BetFTV?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi, ThePOGG,

No response.

A week ago I messaged Gaming-Curacao about it and gotten a reply that they'll follow it up with BetFTV as well.

No further messages have been exchanged after that.

Gaming-Curacao indeed spoke to BetFTV.

They (and thus me, as well) were promised that this would get resolved by Easter.
That seemed like good news.

However, Easter has passed and it did not get resolved, and I still did not get any funds.
To remind you of the current state of events, they received the last document, a notarized copy of my ID, at the end of February.

I have then followed up on that, notified the regulator about it, and they are now again in talks with BetFTV.

Hi Eagle,

I'll contact Gaming-Curacao and add our voice to yours and see if that has any effect.

ThePOGG

Hi Eagle,

Have you had any further progress with this issue? I did contact Gaming-Curacao who assured me they were investigating the issue.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi, ThePoGG,

Last I heard from them was on the 31st of March, when I let them know that BetFTV did not do anything even after Easter (and after their promise to Curacao).

Then they told me they weren't happy to hear about this. No surprise there, as BetFTV told them (not me) it'd get done by Easter.

I sent them (Curacao) one followup, a couple of weeks ago. I haven't received a response to that.

Hi Eagle,

I'm going to leave it till next week, but I'll follow up at the start of the week and see if I can find out anything for you.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

The latest events timeline is as follows.

January 6h Gaming-Curacao.com has issued BetFTV an instruction to reinstate my balance, and to have me complete the (extra) rollover requirements. BetFTV has complied. I have agreed to it as well.

I have completed all the extra wagering and gotten a confirmation from BetFTV that I'm all done. My ending balance is, IIRC, 21 264€.

I have a pending withdrawal for 10 000€ (their monthly limit) since then.

On the 22nd of January they requested the docs - my ID scans, and a couple of screenshots to be emailed; and also a notarized copy of my ID to be sent to them via snail mail.
They received the e-mails immediatelly.

They received the latest piece, via snail mail - and signed for it - on the27th of February.

Since then, they haven't replied to my e-mails - at all - on March the 1st, April 12th, and possibly a couple others. No communication, other than live chat (where the personnel says they can't do anything), was had.

On March 8th Gaming-Curacao said they'd look into it.

On March 22nd Gaming-Curacao instructed them this is taking too long and needs to be settled. Stuart of Gaming-Curacao then tells me they received a confirmation from BetFTV it'd be finished by the end of that week.

It did not happen.

On March 31st, upon me pointing out to Gaming-Curacao that I still did not receive any funds, I got a message back stating they'd see to it that it gets resolved ASAP.

Finally, on May 11th, after again me messaging Gaming-Curacao, I got a message back stating they'd see into it and see why is the payout delayed.

Nothing has happened yet.

I will keep you all posted, of course.

This kind of a case is very telling, in a lot of ways.

Hi Eagle,

I've repeatedly chased Gaming-Curacao about this issue with no response what-so-ever. I'll follow up again just now and see whether I can find anything out for you.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi Eagle,

Thanks for your email - I heard much the same thing at exactly the same time. It will be interesting to see what the operator's response to the possible loss of license is.

ThePOGG

Here's how they've been handling it lately.

Last week I phoned them (the licensor) up. I had a chat with one of the employees, and soon afterwards I received an e-mail from another.

BetFTV is communicating with them. Last week Gaming-Curacao opened an option of license suspension, and subsequently alerting their payment processors, software suppliers etc. of that.
They informed me of that, and asked for my patience.
Payout (the first one of three, I assume) was supposed to happen last week.
It did not.

Today I received an e-mail how they're now working with "managing directors" of the company to resolve this.
I've replied stating how I don't get what BetFTV's play is. Nor what their grudge is. It is in everyone's best interest, mid and long term, that this gets settled.

I will update on how it goes on.

Hi Eagle,

Just to confirm - I contacted Gaming Curacao 2 days ago and have just received a response. The person in charge of this issue had to take an unexpected leave of absence and has returned today. They will be talking to the Managing Director of FashionTV and I'm hoping to hear back from them soon.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Since the last update, Curacao about once every two weeks mentions that they're "talking" to the MD of BetFTV.

Here is the rough outline -
"I am trying to work to get this resolved. The MD said that they should have resolve this week.
The alternative is to suspend their license which would entail contacting the processors and software suppliers which would effectively make it more difficult to pay.
I constantly having correspondence with them and they are not denying your WD seems to be an internal problem with them that needs to be cleared up. I assure you we will get some resolve one way or another."

Note that this again confirms that my withdrawal is an "internal problem of theirs (BetFTV's)".
However, nothing else happens, except from an odd new "deadline" which BetFTV supposedly promises Curacao and then never follows up on. There were four or five of those during the last six months.

I asked Curacao, given all that, what is their plan then. What is their next step. I don't see the point in new talks of "deadlines" if nothing happens after them.

I haven't received a response to that question yet, although I did learn the next (current) step they did make - a couple weeks worth of vacation.

Hi Eagle,

Unfortunately I've had exactly the same response today, providing little information other than that Gaming Curacao are going to chase this issue again soon and that my point of contact will be out of the office until the 20th.

The best I can give you is to be patient, polite and persistent. The truth is that Gaming Curacao are essentially your only hope of getting paid. They do seem to be making efforts even if the operator isn't really playing ball.

The fact that BetFTV are assuring Gaming Curacao that they will pay tells us that they put at least some stock in their license and do not want to lose it. Any regulatory sanction - regardless of jurisdiction - will be slow to fall so the delays are nothing unusual. The real question is only whether BetFTV want to retain their license enough to ultimately pay and only time will tell that. So playing along with Gaming Curacao is your best option if you want to retain any chance of finally getting paid.

Btw - you are not alone in being in this situation with this operator. I'm aware of 2 other cases that are both having the same issues.

ThePOGG

Hi Eagle,

Just to let you know I've chased Gaming Curacao about this issue again today.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi Eagle,

I've followed up with Gaming Curacao again today. My understanding is that there should be an update for you this week, so hopefully that will come through today or tomorrow.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Thank you for that.
Sadly, I have not received any updates from them in said timeframe.
I have not received anything from them since August 11, when they promised an "Update next week".

Hi Eagle,

I've contact Gaming Curacao again today to request an update on this issue.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi maks,

I've been informed by Gaming Curacao today that they've stipulated that FashionTV are to pay the various outstanding player balances this week or their license will be suspended.

Hopefully your money will come through....

ThePOGG

That sounds like a strong statement.
Fingers crossed that it works.

Hi Eagle,

As you've not received your payment I've contacted Gaming Curacao again to confirm that the FashionTV license has been revoked. I'll let you know when I hear from them.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Yep. Sadly, I indeed did not receive any of my winnings.