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Dunder – Casino denies slot malfunction/reset/server error

Ruling

Found for the Casino - While we do understand the player's frustrations, there are no technical standards requiring games to load at a pre-defined betting level and had the player won they would have expected to be paid. As such there are no grounds to require Dunder casino to return this player's losses.

Read our Dunder Casino Review.

Player's Complaint

Having played slots with Dunder Casino online for 2 full days at minimum stakes 20p/25p/30p/40p I had made thousands of spins at these stakes. I would never bet more.

However on 12/1/2017 in the evening I was playing Devil's Delight and was actually in the middle of the "feature game" when the screen first froze and then an error message from Dunder displayed saying the game would have to be restarted which it did. I did glance at my total to at least check it had credited my feature game winnings, which it had, and the total was approx £74.

However, what I did not notice was that the game did not "remember" that I was playing at a 20p stake only. I restarted autoplay which I had been using before the crash but the game had changed to a £4 initial stake. I tried to stop the autoplay as quick as possible but in the few seconds it took to get to the button £12 had been debited from my account.

I contacted Dunder as it was their software crashing that caused this yet they blame ME for not checking the stake. Granted if I was playing from the beginning on that slot I would have done, indeed I did when I started. But I just thought the game would "remember" the stake the current player was using.

Also in an age when we are meant to be controlling problem gambling why are machines allowed to be default set at anything but the minimum stake anyway?

As I told them this is an accident waiting to happen and it's as if the casinos actually want you to spin accidentally on a higher stake so that they can then refuse to refund you.

Yes I have a moral duty to check the stake. But more importantly the casino has to ensure software is fully functional and that in the event of a genuine error the client is treated fairly. I certainly didn't expect to be accused of lying about the software crashing. So my balance ended up being around £64 instead of £74 (although the wagers were 3x£4 there were a couple of tiny wins).

You can see my explanation to Dunder below. I think for the sake of a measly £10 they made a real meal out of making me feel so small, undervalued and worthless that it stunned me. I even suggested they refund me in bonus spins but no they wouldn't even entertain that. I don't think they value customers. They certainly don't have a fair help policy with staff who have any authority to solve what is essentially a pathetic problem which could have been sorted in 5 minutes.

As you can see, the outcome was that they did nothing despite the fact they could verify every prior bet I had made was for minimal stakes. Thousands of spins! Nor would they let me cash out and leave waiving outstanding bonus wagering requirements.

I was furious and in the circumstances I have blown the rest of my £64 balance (yes at minimum stakes) frantically trying to win back my lost £10 which I genuinely feel I've been robbed of. Instead of enjoying my joining offer gradually as I had been doing the past few days.

I don't think I am unjustified in thinking that although the T&Cs say the player is responsible for checking the stake that it is not unreasonable for Dunders servers to "remember" my prior stake. Indeed I don't think it is unreasonable to expect ALL casinos to set slots at the minimum available stake and for the player to be able to "upgrade the bet" as he chooses rather than the casinos to set their own level of default bet for each slot. I think that is greed, it encourages accidental spins and that it does nothing whatsoever to help problem gambling.

Dunder won't help me but I do want an acceptable resolution given the way I have been treated. In the circumstances I don't think it is unreasonable to expect Dunber to put me back at a balance of £74 where I was before their software failure message (something about non communication with the server) so I can start again where I left off. I don't mind if they make these bonus funds with a 10 times wagering requirement or so. I have been reasonable all along. But I had 17 years in frontline customer service before I had a brain hemorrhage. I never once treated a customer like I was treated over a measly £10

So I would like the situation resolved, fairly, with the casino acknowledging I was a totally low stakes player as they could see that from their records. They have to take some responsibility for their own computer servers suddenly not communicating with my PC. I am not lying, it happened.

Please note I am NOT and never have been necessarily seeking a CASH refund of my original balance of £74. I am quite content with a bonus payment of £74 subject to 10x wagering. I am fair I don't expect a cash payment. I just want to enjoy my casino experience as I should have

Chat exchanges with Dunder Casino

From [EDIT]

My username [EDIT]

my email [EDIT]

Slot being played when freeze / crash occurred Devil's Delight

It occured during the feature game

The chat transcript is below.

I hope you have somebody valuing customer service there who accepts these things do happen and that defaulting back to £4 a spin after a game crash is very unfair after thousands of spins over 48 hours at 20p or 25p

[EDIT]:

Hello!

How may I help you?

You:

[EDIT] I was playing at 20p a spin, the game froze and crashed , when it came back I didn't notice it was £4 a spin and because it was on auto it span twice costing £8. this was not my fault. You can check that it crashed but I am owed £8

Game Devils Delight literally just happened

[EDIT]:

Let me have a look, one moment.

You:

thank you very much

actually it may have spun 3 times before i got to STOP button

[EDIT]:

I have looked over this and unfortunately what we can see in the system is that you have placed this bet and I am sorry to say but it is up to the player to check so they bet the correct amount before spins. I am truly sorry for this [EDIT].

You:

No that is not acceptable the game froze and it crashed. You can see I have been playing for 2 days and never once placed a bet that large

I could argue that you should have games that do not crash and which retain player settings

[EDIT]:

One moment.

You:

That attitude is disgusting when you can see my bet level

I am not losing £12 for a game which CRASHED

I think before those spins started I was at approx £74 it should be returned to that level

[EDIT]:

I am sorry for that but when you got back to the game you started playing without checking the bet amount and due to that the game starts with a bet of £4 when you enter Devils Delight.

You:

No I am not having that [EDIT]. The game crashed and it should not do so. It is your responsibility to ensure games are stable and if they crash they pick up where the player left off The way you are going you'd think I was ssking for millions. Its £10 for goodness sake. I'm a new customer. Do you wish to retain me?

[EDIT]:

I am sorry but I checked the game and it worked fine and it might also be that you need to check so you have the latest update of Java and Flash on your browser .

You:

NO IT DID NOT IT CRASHED IN THE FEATURE AND TOLD ME TO RESTART THE GAME PLEASE DONT ACCUSE ME OF LYING We can always take this to the gambling commission if you like but I will seek compensation for being called a liar too. How dare you say it did not crash

[EDIT]:

I am not accusing you of lying but I can't see anything wrong in the game rounds and I also checked the game [EDIT]. It is still up to the player to check the bet amount before you start to spin.

You:

No, it is up to you, on a game issue to restart where the player left off. It is also up to goodwill of the casino to look at the facts. I have been playing continually. Have I ever laced one such bet NO

[EDIT]:

I am sorry but it is still up to the player to check their bet amount before starting to spin.

You:

And I am sorry but you have accused me of lying IT FROZE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SINS FEATURE

So you just want to lose me as a customer well fair enough waive all the wagering and let me leave you with the balance of £63.38

I cannot believe you lose a customer over £10 good will issue. Utterly incredible

[EDIT]:

Still, I never accused you of lying, I am just informing that I can't see anything wrong in the game rounds and would suggest you to clear cookies and cache from you browser to stop preventing this to happen again.

You:

My cookies and cache are cleared every session so don't talk to me like a child . I'm 51 for goodness sake

[EDIT]:

I mean that if these issues happens , we always advise players to troubleshoot .

You:

Look you've made your decision to lose a customer so just waive the outstanding wagering I'll take my balance and close the account. I like your casino but there are many more

[EDIT]:

I am sorry [EDIT] but in this case I can't do anything else.

You:

I don't care anymore what you think when you can't even credit £10 in bonus funds. You can see how much I've wagered over 2 days.

Yes you can waive the wagering and I'll take the balance . The game was at fault. It froze and crashed I want to speak to a manager.......... now!

They can phone if required [EDIT]

I am not being treated like a total idiot when I have wagered 20p or 25p continually for 2 days and you can plainly see I son't wager £4 bets I just don't

[EDIT]:

I am sorry [EDIT] but we do not offer telephone support.

You:

Well I'll speak to the casino manager here then

Just waive the wagering and tell me I can withdraw the balance and close the account. That is clearly the outcome you want

[EDIT]:

We have looked into your account and can see that you have £0 in real money and £63.38 in bonus money and if you click on your balance (next to the home button) and then you can see on the left how much you've wagered in % and how much you have left to wager in your currency. If you wish, you can always cancel the ongoing bonus on your account ) and then £12.14 will be real money and £50 will be removed due to that it's the bonus money locked to the bonus.

You:

No [EDIT] if you are not going to credit £10 goodwill bonus (with wagering) then you can waive all outstanding wagering. It is a simple request and one which it looks like I will be passing on to the Gambling Commision as you are treating your client like an idiot

[EDIT]:

I cant change the amount in this bonus to real money due to that £50 is bonus money.

I am sorry that you feel this way [EDIT].

You:

You can help your customers with goodwill so please say you can't. All customers should at least have one chance at watching what the hell you are making us bet when the game crashes. And when a game starts my argument for the gambling commisssion is that it should defalt to MINIMUM 20p not £4 unless you are encouraging problem gambling of course

[EDIT]:

You are of course entitled to your opinion but in this case, looking at the game rounds , I can't do anything in this matter.

You:

Put a manager on here

Somebody who cares about customer goodwill

You clearly dont

I have been very patient given the situation

[EDIT]:

I dont have any manager here and if you wish you can send en email to [email protected]

You:

No Im not having that you could do a credit , grant complimentary spins, don't tell me you can't or there's no point you sitting there at all

[EDIT]:

Sorry for that. I can't because as I informed before regarding the bet amount , it is still up to the player to check this.

So you can send in an email to [email protected] if you wish.

You:

So you are telling me You are running the whole casino tonight? Just want to get this clear for the gambling commission and you can't even grant 100 spins on Starburst for example? You are telling me you are totally unable to do anything and therefore there is little point you being there. Amazing

[EDIT]:

I am telling that my manager isnt here and I am one of the two that works on the support this evening.

You:

What is the point of your job then? I want to tell the gambling commission that there is chat help.... yet there is no help. Just a company hiding away over a refund of just £10

[EDIT]:

I am not able to give you a free bonus [EDIT], I am sorry. I am here to provide with information regarding this but in this case I cant give you any bonus or credit the amount you played with.

It has nothing to do with the amount that we can't add on the account. It is not about that [EDIT]. As I have explained about the bets and it is players responsibility to check this. I am sorry but I can't refund your lost bets.

You:

Ok so I('ll finish this off by saying you've verified that for 48 hours I've played nothing but 20p or 25p bets. That must amount to multi thousand spins. You can see there was not one over that amount yet you refuse to help claiming you have zero capability in your job. You have also accused me of lying over the game freezing and crashing and instead blamed me and my computer. You think that defaulting to £4 bets is acceptable and you have no goodwill when the facts are clear. I want to get this clear that this is what [EDIT] says (who runs Dunder on her own appareantly)

[EDIT]:

I never say that I rund Dunder by my self.

And I have already informed you all regarding this and cant refund the lost bets

You:

No you must do as you can't refer me to anybody with more authority than you so it's clearly just you

No [EDIT] it's actually clear you can't do anything at all except illegally part customers from money they did not wish to wager

I think you are acctively encouraging problem gambling

[EDIT]:

No, because I dont have anyone here at the moment and advised you to send in an email to [email protected]

You:

And the point of that is? They will say by return exactly what you said. Sorry I want to TALK to a human not waste time with text with people who can remain nameless

[EDIT]:

I am sorry but this is the process [EDIT], you can send in an email to that email-address.

You:

And what will happen? Exactly what I said. I'm sorry [EDIT] I really don't care. I didn't make your blasted slot crash and I want thye £10 back. This is NOT OF MY MAKING. If your game had not froze I would still be happily playing

[EDIT:

We will take this further if you send in an email to see what we can do but right now I can't refund this

You:

If you were in my position I wonder how helpful YOU think YOU HAVE BEEN in dealing with me? I can tell you. You'd be disgusted. As I am absolutely disgusted. I will send the email in the knowledge they will probably be as rude and uncaring as you have but rest assured if it isn't sorted fairly I am seeking a refund plus compensation via the gambling commission. I'd really like to say thankyou for your help at the end of all this. But quite frankly you haven't been any help. And for a guy who is medically retired folloowing a brain haemorrhage this is one piece of grief over a paltry £10 I could have done without

[EDIT]:

I have asked you to send in an email so I can see what I can do for you [EDIT], as I have informed you several times, I can't refund the lost bets due to that i can't see anything wrong in the game rounds and to send in this email means that I am really trying here

You:

I will send the email as you have asked in the hope somebody at the other hand actually does value a customer. But right now I am so stressed out and glad I have medication to calm my nerves. It is clear you are authorised to do nothing so I'll end it here. Stressed out and absolutely furious at a complete lack of respect, understanding and customer service. You have completely ruined my experience of what I think is probably the best slots casino other end NOT other hand

[EDIT]:

Sorry that you feel this way but that is why I have asked you to send this email to see what we can do for you, this is nothing I can fix over the chat due to that I dont have anyone to check with.

You:

OK I'm gone.

[EDIT]:

When we have received the email we will see what we can do in this case for you [EDIT] and I am sorry once more for this.

Have a nice evening .

On 12 January 2017 at 22:11, Dunder wrote:

##- Please type your reply above this line -##

Hello [EDIT],

I hope that you are doing well.

I am sorry to hear that your gameround froze/crashed. When this happens we recomed as a first course of action to clear the cache and cookies from your browser as the game use up a lot of space, specialy the bonus features.

The default setting of the game has the starting bet set tp£4, so reloading the game also resets the starting bet.

Unfortuantely we can not be help responsible that you check the starting bet of a game when you reload it and later accept the bet, even though we can appreciate that this may not have been your intended bets. Should the bets have been winning bet, naturaly the winnings would have been added to the account.

Reading through the chat I see that you may wish to cancel your bonus. Doing so at this time would mean forfeiting the £50 in bonus leaving you with £12.14 in real money. £1.24 is a seperate bonus generated from winnings from complimentary spins. Kindly confirm if you still wish to do so.

We hope that you decide to keep your account and try to complete your bonus. I can remind you that you also have a total of 160 complimentary spins left to collect added 20 a day, the following 8 days.

You will be able to find them then in the game Starburst.

The complimentary spins are valid for 24 hrs, so make sure to log in every day in order to collect them all.

Have lovely evening and please contact us again should you have any other questions for us.

Best regards,

[EDIT]

Dunder.com

[EDIT]

23:17 (2 hours ago)

to Dunder

Forget it, I'm just taking it to the Gambling Commission as it was your slot which forced me into a default £4 stakex3 which I wouldn't have had and the autoplay took a couple of seconds to stop

Your lack of respect and concern for the customer is absolutely amazing

Your slots should not default to such high stakes anyway. It is asking for trouble. It's as if you want to encourage accidental expensive spins

You certainly do not value your customer retention that's for sure

As I said to [EDIT] the return email would just say "ditto"

Absolutely disgustng service

I am also recommending to the gambling commission that you make it clear there is no "help" available on "chat". Just excuses, denials and fob offs blaming everything and everybody as long as it isn't freezing then crashing software

Something needs to be done about default spins not being on the minimum and rock bottom customer service. No wonder people become problem gamblers if you happily remove £4 per spin when it's clear that after 2 days of spinning at lowest stakes a software fault caused a reset.

You couldn't even award £10 of complimentary spins or something

Disgusting !

[EDIT]

Read the casino review

2 Responses

ThePOGG
Jan 14, 2017

Hi DaveS1965 - welcome to ThePOGG.com!

As a UK citizen and as we are the officially appointed Alternative Dispute Resolution service for Dunder Casino there is certain information we have to provide you now.

You can find all the relevant information about this service here – http://thepogg.com/terms-of-use/

To summarise.

– Use of this service does not preclude your seeking redress through court proceedings .

– This service is free to use for both the complainant and operator.

– At any point during the procedure the submitting party retains the right to withdraw their complaint. This does not preclude our right to continue the discussion with the involved operator of general issues related to the complaint (i.e. insufficiently clear terms and conditions).

– You are not obliged to obtain independent or legal advice or representation, though you may choose to do so.

The above is somewhat clunky but a necessary part of the process for any complaint that comes in under ADR procedures.

If you have any questions about the above, let me know.

Moving on to your complaint specifically - unfortunately there's not going to be much we can do to help you.

Having read through your issue I'd provide some comments:

- Browser based games are high load on system resources. Crashes do happen from time to time in all casinos running instant play games. While this is frustrating and software providers do work to minimise the frequency of such issues, technology will fail from time to time.

- While I understand and sympathise with your frustrations, where a game is loaded the operator is right that it is your responsibility to check that the bets are set to the level you want before commencing play. You will have had to set your bets on the first load so this isn't a unique situation.

- As far as we are aware the UKGC currently places no requirements on software developers or operators to reset to minimum betting levels at game load as part of any gambling protection policies. I'll double check that with the UKGC for you but truthfully this isn't a problem we've seen come up with any frequency.

- Had you won from those bets there's no realistic possibility that you would have went to casino support and demanded that the bets be voided because you didn't want to bet at that level. As such, you're asking that the operator be placed in a position where if you had won they would have to pay you and if you had lost they would be forced to return your losses. To enforce this would create a lose/lose proposition for the operator.

- The remaining wagering requirements for your bonus are not relevant to this issue. While I understand that you wanted to walk away at that point, the winnings in your account were associated with a bonus. When you agreed to take that bonus you agreed to fulfil the requirements associated with the bonus. This issue does not negate those obligations and the operator is not out with their rights to require you to comply with them.

- The losses after the issue are non-relevant. While you may have been frustrated, you chose to place those wagers and, as stated above, had you won you would not be demanding that the wagers be voided.

I will approach the operator to discuss this issue further, but at this stage I do need to make clear that i) any resolution would be based on a good will gesture from the operator and ii) if the operator were to decide to give a good will gesture, it would still be subject to any wagering requirements that were left to complete from the bonus associated with this play.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

ThePOGG
Jan 30, 2017

Hi DaveS1965,

I've spoken to both the UKGC and Dunder casino about this issue.

With regard to whether or not games have to load at the minimum possible bet, the UKGC referred us to their Remote Technical Standards which can be found here - http://live-gamblecom.cloud.contensis.com/PDF/Remote-gambling-and-software-technical-standards.pdf. Having reviewed this document there's no requirement for games to load at a specific pre-defined betting level and as such games are likely to load at the default setting selected by the manufacturer.

Dunder casino have provided the following statement:

"Casino management at Dunder have investigated the complaint and it seems as if the player has been, judging by the space of time between spins, unfortunate to have an outage of some sort. In cases like this we, Dunder, always try and want to be fair. Unfortunately, in events like crashes, it can't be determined whether it's accidental or caused purposefully.

We don't believe this case to be on purpose, however, with the implications that come with reimbursing players on similar events, we must be as consistent as possible.

We sincerely apologise for any inconvenience caused by this and hope the player understands why we can't give any reimbursement."

While we would agree that the game crash was frustrating, ultimately it is your responsibility to check the wager size before you restarted play. As was mentioned above, had these increased bets won you would rightly have expected to be paid your winnings.

Sorry we cannot be of any further help.

ThePOGG

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