Osiris - Not paying winning

Hi ston98dd - welcome to ThePOGG.com!

Before I can do anything to help you I need you to provide the username and email address you use at Osiris casino.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

[EDIT] --- Username [EDIT] --- Email

Is there any updates here?

Hi ston98dd,

I'm afraid not. I've emailed my contact with this group twice since this complaint was submitted with no response. I'll now be trying generic contact routes under the presumption that the person I previously spoke to has left.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Would it be possible to try and get in touch with [EDIT]. Once he was introduced to the situation (after the phone call), everything happened really fast. My first withdrawal got approved within 24h, then I got an email 24h after the first saying my winnings were confiscated. Still very confusing how they pulled off such a stunt.

Hi ston98dd,

If you have a contact email address I'll be happy to try, but truthfully I suspect the reason I'm not getting a response is the same reason I didn't get a response to the last complaint about Deuce Club, that being that this site has not been passive in it's response to recent issues where this group has been working with partners engaged in illegal activities. In other words, if we're saying negative things about them, they won't assist with complaints.

If you can provide contact details I'll make efforts all the same.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Unfortunately I do not have a direct email to reach him, and I've tried calling their contact number dozens of times and I am never able to reach anyone.

I am going to try complaining on a few other sites as well, at least this way they will be exposed for the way they cheated me and hopefully people will think twice before they play there.

Regards

Hi ston98dd,

Just to keep you informed, my previous contact has just got back to me. We're discussing the issue now.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

That's really good news, thank you.

Hi ston98dd,

I've just heard back from Osiris casino - they've informed me that the remaining funds have been paid and should show in your bank account in the next few days.

If you could confirm when you receive the payment and how much was paid I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Ok I will post the exact amount received + the date when I received it.

I am just curious to know what they mean when they say the remaining funds, as I never saw any payment from them to begin with. I am hoping that they are referring to my first withdrawal of 2500EUR, but I will let you know as soon as I get something.

Thank you for everything

Hi ston98dd,

That wording was mine not their's. All I've had from them is;

"player have been paid he will see soon on his bank account"

Let's see what comes through and I'll take it from there.

ThePOGG

I have received 300 EUR this morning. This is the equivalent of my initial deposit. Once again Id like to specify that my initial withdrawal of 2500 was approved along with my documents before they decided they were gonna steal my money. I even lost close to 1000 EUR after I cashed out my 2500EUR, I followed all the terms and conditions, and even took advice from an employee of theirs (Jeff) who had assured me I would receive my 2500EUR withdrawal within a week...

I hope we can figure out what happens now.

Hi ston98dd,

I have contact Osiris about this and am awaiting an explanation. I'll let you know when I have further information.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

I appears that Osiris casino management have chosen to withdraw from conversation of this issue (I'm not getting any further responses to my emails). I've set a deadline of Friday the 19th for them to get back to me.

If I receive no explanation by this point, it would be my intention to take this issue to their regulator on Malta.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

I can update you on the situation. They have decided to pay me the first withdrawal on the account. I have received 2500 EUR, and I am now talking to them to have them restore the rest of my money to the balance. I am waiting for their response. I will update you and anyone following this post for any upcoming development.

Hi ston98dd,

That's great news! Obviously you want all the money but €2.5k's a good start. Please do keep me updated regarding your progress.

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

Have you had any further movement from Osiris casino on this issue?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

They are refusing to pay the rest of my winning because they claim I broke their terms, even though my wagers were made without a bonus, after having won a large sum. I can update you if anything changes here.

Thank you

Hi ston98dd,

At this stage I don't see Osiris casino moving on this issue without further outside intervention. As such I'm going to suggest that you submit a complaint to the MGA regarding this issue. You can do so at this link - http://www.mga.org.mt/support/contact-us/

Once you've submitted your complaint please forward me a copy at [email protected]

It would also be appreciated if you could give the MGA permission to discuss this issue with ThePOGG.com and I'll liaise directly with them.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

Have you submitted your complaint to the MGA?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

No i have not found the time yet, I will send it by Friday and reply to this threadd

Hi ston98dd,

If you've not already submitted your complaint to the MGA I'd request that you hold off for the time being. I've managed to establish an alternative avenue of communication with Osiris casino and I'm hoping this will prove more fruitful than their affiliate program.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

I have not sent anything in yet, I will wait for your reply

Hi ston98dd,

Can you confirm;

1) were you playing with a bonus?

2) if so what games were you playing and how much were you betting?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

I need you to access your account and provide me your game history from the point where you first submitted your withdrawal. If you could forward screen shots of this information on to [email protected] I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

I have sent you an email reply.

Hi ston98dd,

I've reviewed both the screen shots that you provided and the terms and conditions at Osiris casino. The issue appears to be that you placed some large bets on Blackjack after reversing your withdrawal at the casino's request. These bets were made entirely with your own funds (no bonus involved), but Osiris have a 30% of deposit max bet rule even for non-bonus play. I compiled an email to the casino last night and am now awaiting their response;

Hi [OSIRIS CASINO REP],

I've had some time to review both the Osiris casino terms and conditions and screen shots of the player's game history over the course of today and have some feedback to provide. Unfortunately it doesn't reflect well on the decision to confiscate funds.

In the first instance I'll address the term itself;

"Conan Gaming reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings and bonuses for irregular play. "Irregular play" may include, inter alia:

Placing total bets equal to or greater than 30% of the value of the deposit.

"

There are two issues with this term and its application.

Firstly if this is intended for use during bonus play a) it conflicts with the term that comes directly above it stipulating 30% of the bonus and secondly it's irrelevant in this situation as the player had already completed the requirements for their bonus as evidenced by the payment of the first withdrawal.

Secondly - and the situation that appears to be more likely to be the case - if this term is intended for use against non-bonus play it's at the very least predatory, if not flat out unethical, not to mention that there's no reasonable mathematical justification for carrying such a term.

Casinos implement maximum bet terms against bonuses specifically because it is mathematically possible to gain an advantage over the house using high value bets while playing with bonus funds. As long as your games are functioning fairly there is no mathematically valid way of using bet size (large or small) to overcome the House Edge without the use of promotional incentives.

Given that there's no sound mathematical justification for the term, there's no reason to have it in place. Furthermore, players who do not take a bonus naturally expect to be able to play without restrictions beyond those they find built into the games themselves. Burying maximum bet rules for non-bonus plays into terms and conditions unquestionably constitutes a deceptive business practice.

Moving away from the general issue with the term itself and for the sake of argument accepting it as valid - the way in which this term has been applied still doesn't represent reasonable practice.

In the first instance the casino appear to be considering the original deposit the line for judging this issue on. However, given that the player had made a withdrawal request for funds that were validly their's - they had completed the bonus requirements and the funds left in their account were their own money to withdraw as they pleased - and that the funds were only returned to the account at the request of the casino the reversal of the withdrawal has to be considered a deposit in its own right. That being the case, the contested bets did not even nearly approach the 30% of deposit rule.

Even if we consider both the term valid AND accept that it should be based on the initial deposit rather than the reversed withdrawal, the manner in which the term is being applied is still grossly unfair. Where online casinos enforce confiscation of a balance due to breach of a bonus contract it's not actually confiscation at all. The player was offered an incentive to accept a set of restrictions, when the player fails to adhere to those restrictions they invalidate the incentive and any benefits they've already received from it. As no incentive has been offered, this is just a blanket rule, applying it to the entire balance is utter nonsense. The rule could only be applied to the bets that violated the term, voiding those transactions.

Having reviewed the player's wagering a total of 1800 was wagered resulting in a loss of 1125. That being the case;

* If the term was applied correctly Osiris casino would actually be due the player 1125.

* Even if the term was applied in a fashion that solely benefited the casino (i.e. all wagers placed over the allowed amount are immediately considered losses) the most that could be reasonable confiscated would be 1800.

In short, there's no justification what-so-ever for the confiscation of the player's balance in this case and this needs to be remedied immediately. This is a clear cut error on the part of the casino and if Osiris casino are still intending to hold to the position that they've taken I'll be recommending that the player submit a complaint to the MGA and assisting them with the management of the complaint.

If you have any questions about the above feel free to ask and I look forward to your response.

Hi ston98dd,

I need you to submit your complaint to the MGA. The casino are holding their position. Remember to specifically give permission to discuss the issue with us and I'll talk to the MGA directly.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd -

Have you submitted your complaint to the MGA?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

I just finished submitting the complaint and asked them to talk to you about it. I will give you any details once they answer me.

Hi ston98dd,

Just to make you completely aware of what's going on;

The MGA have received your complaint. I have discussed the complaint with the MGA. They've contacted the operator and the operator now has 21 days to provide a response.

That's where we're currently at.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

I've spoken with the MGA about this issue again. Osiris casino have failed to respond to the MGA about this complaint and a reminder has now been issued.

I'll update you as soon as I have more information.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

I can only apologise for the delay. Osiris casino have failed to respond to the MGA so far. Apparently their representative is out of the office until next week, at which point we should have some further information.

ThePOGG

Ok I'm waiting for your reponse, thank you very much

Hi ston98dd,

I am now discussing this issue with the MGA. The conversation has gone down a fairly technical legal route so you'll need to give me some time while we discuss the details.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

I don't have anything new to pass on at this stage, I'm just contacting again to reassure you that this issue is still in discussion behind the scenes and I believe progress is being made.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

I'm coming back to you with what I believe to be good news for everyone else and likely bad news for you.

The good news is that half of the group that Osiris casino belong to have removed this term (the half regulated by the MGA). While the MGA couldn't give me the specifics of this they did tell me the term wouldn't be a problem moving forward. That being the case, and given that this group have just contacted me to tell me that 'the term's gone so we can work together now' it seems fair to conclude that something happened behind the scenes involving the MGA.

The bad news is that while the term has been removed at Osiris casino, as it was previously an approved term it becomes legally impossible for the regulator to enforce sanctions over its application.

The present state of affairs is that the MGA have attempted to pass this issue on to a Malta consumer protection association (the MCCAA) to review whether the term actually breaches consumer laws. Personally I believe it does especially given the manner in which it's been enforced, however I'm not a lawyer and there's obviously room for debate about this. Unfortunately we've been struggling to get the MCCAA to respond to this issue but are still trying.

I'll let you know when I know more.

All the best,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

I'm going to be speaking to the MGA next week and your case is one of the issues I'm looking to discuss.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

I've discussed this issue at length with the MGA. There's a very complicated political situation that's entirely irrelevant to this issue but is unfortunately having a marked impact on the goodwill necessary to move an issue of this nature forward.

While I cannot go into details regarding this issue, I can say that the MGA are doing what they can to get the MCCAA to review this issue properly. Beyond that I can't really say much nor can I make any assurances regarding how long this process is likely to take nor it's chances of success.

If you wished to try pursuing this via legal channels I'd understand as all I can suggest at the current time is allowing the MGA more time to get the relevant action taken.

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

We may finally have some movement on this issue. I think it'll take a few more weeks to get all the right channels of communication open, but I'm hoping to come back to you in the near future.

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

Your case hinges on the movement of one particular body in Malta that both myself and the MGA are struggling to get moving. They seem to have agreed that there is a case to review here but since that point they've gone back into hibernation. The bottom line is that until this body gets actively involved there's not going to be any progress.

I'll keep pursing this and let you know what happens.

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

I finally have some information for you!

MCCAA has reviewed the terms that have been enforced against you and agree with original conclusion reached by our own service that the terms in this instance could be viewed as unfair to consumers and as such may be in breach of EU law.

There are however still problems. Firstly I need to know your country of residence as if you're not an EU citizen then the MCCAA will not be able to do anything for you. Secondly, in the time between the submission of your complaint and now the GameTech group have closed all of their MGA licensed properties and rebranded them under a Curacao license. This obviously make enforcement of any subsequent ruling very challenging but I am discussion all possible avenues with the MGA and will revert to you when I have a better picture of what we can do.

Thanks for your patience,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

In response to your email there are still possible avenues even if you're not a EU citizen. The down side is that some bodies that would have represented you had you been an EU citizen won't involve themselves in the case now.

My current understanding is that the MGA are intending to arrange a meeting with the legal representative for what remains of this group's footprint in Malta. The result will give us a better idea of what options are available.

Can you remind me of the total of the outstanding balance?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

Could you confirm your name for me please?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi ston98dd,

Unfortunately this process has come to its end point.

The MGA have now confirmed that they have instructed Osiris to return your balance, but that the operator, having shifted all of their assets outside of the MGA's zone of influence, have been clear that they will not comply and are now non-responsive.

My understanding is that the MGA are still investigating any further potential action they can take against this group, but the likelihood of being able to return funds to you given that the group no longer has any assets in Malta would be negligible.

For your information the information that we received from the MCCAA regarding the validity of the term used to void your funds was as follows:

"The term in question may indeed be regarded as unfair in accordance with article 44 and 45 of the Consumer Affairs Act, particularly with regards to articles 44(2)(g) which regards as ipso jure unfair any term which requires the consumer who fails to fulfil his obligations under the contract, to pay to the trader as compensation a sum which is disproportionately high to the value of the goods or services purchased or hired. Moreover, the compensation for the breach of obligation is not commensurate to the ‘harm’ caused to the trader and if all the money in the account is withdrawn as a result of the non-compliance with this term, this would mean that for the same act of ‘irregular play’ a consumer with 2,500 euro in his account would sustain a greater loss than say a person with 200 euro in his account even though both have been found ‘guilty’ of the same violation against the terms of the contract. In the light of the above, I would say that there are sufficient grounds on which such term could be regarded as unfair in terms of article 45 of the Act."

Unfortunately I don't have any further avenues of pursuit that I could suggest. You may be able to challenge the operators in the courts of Curacao, but I have no experience with this nor do I know of any players that have done this successfully. As such I couldn't provide you any advice about how to go about this.

I'm sorry we couldn't resolve this issue for you.

ThePOGG