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Tobwin – Casino change the rules when you win

Ruling

Found for the Player - During the duration of this complaint it came to light that Tobwin had insufficient terms and conditions, which they freely accepted yet still forced the player to comply with, once the player had complied with the terms refused to pay them unless they got this complaint taken down and ultimately were operating under a fraudulent license.

The player has not been paid by this rogue operation, but the casino has been shut down by their software provider Betsoft.

Player's Complaint

Hello,

I signed up at Tobwin Casino a few weeks ago and made a few deposits until I got lucky and won some money. I had received a bonus as part of their welcome package and kept playing until I had played the bonus 30 times as advertised on the website.

When I went to withdraw there was a long delay after I had submitted my documents and the casino replied that I had to play through my deposit AND bonus 30 times. I pointed out that their website displayed 30 times bonus when I signed up and played at the casino but they refused to change their decision.

I was very careful to read the terms and conditions before signing up to the casino as there is lots of small print which you must abide by. The casino changed the terms and conditions displayed after I submitted my withdrawal which does not seem fair, this enables them to change the terms at any time they like to suit them, and in this case save them from paying out a winner.

I would be grateful if you could look into this matter for me.

Originally posted on the 7th of April.

Read the casino review

7 Responses

ThePOGG
Jul 24, 2014

Hi seanysean8,

I've had a quick look at the Tobwin rules and as far as I can see you're absolutely right, though I would stress that they've not actually changed any rules.

I've reviewed the terms and conditions on the Tobwin website. The terms and conditions on the sign-up bonus page are somewhat ambigious, stating only that the wagering requirement on the sign-up bonus is 40x for the first deposit and 30x for the next 3. 40x leaves room for interpretation as to 40x what and understandably the player would want to interpret that in a way that favours them so good practice dictates that this should be clarified.

This however is clarified in the general term and conditions where across all different sections, where wagering requirements are discussed they are always discussed in as 30xbonus balance (including for the sign-up bonus);

"For Players who receive a first deposit or sign up bonus, a minimum of 30 times the bonus balance must be wagered prior to making a withdrawal from their Cash account."

I've recorded a video of all relevant terms this morning for the sake of completeness;

[VIDEO]

Before I can approach Tobwin, I need you to provide me your username and the email address you use with the casino. I also need you to forward on any relevant correspondence you've had with Tobwin to webmaster@thepogg.com.

Thanks

ThePOGG

Originally posted on the 8th of April

seanysean8
Jul 24, 2014

Hi ThePOGG,

I will forward on the relevant emails now.

My email address is [EDIT] and my username is
seanysean8. I made 3 deposits totalling 800 and I tried to withdraw
1,566.5.

[EDIT]

Originally posted on the 8th of April

ThePOGG
Jul 24, 2014

Hi seanysean8,

Having reviewed the email conversation that you've sent over, it turns out that I've missed a term. As the Tobwin rep correctly asserts, there is indeed a term within the Bonus Account section that states;

14. "All Wager requirement refer to deposit + bonus (db)"

Now I have spent some time today trying to establish when that term was added. Unfortunately, no one has requested that this specific page be monitored at the change detection service I use resulting in no record there. Alongside this, I checked with all of the major search engines to have a look at any available cached versions of the page. Unfortunately this url doesn't appear in any of the search engine indexes, suggesting that either Tobwin have specifically requested that the page not turn up in
> search results, though there may be other reasons for this. Finally I checked with Way Back Machine, but the only results I could find there were from 2012 and far too old to be of use here. The bottom line here is that there is nothing to suggest that this term was added after your play and as such really no argument for you not to complete the full wagering requirement. What I can and will do however is contact Tobwin regarding the lay out of their terms and conditions. While they do have a term clearly stating that all bonus wagering requirements are in the x(deposit+bonus) format, it would be very easy for a less than eagle eyed player to only see the "30 times the bonus balance" part that is listed in other locations more relevant to the sign-up bonus. This is very poor practice and most certainly serves to mislead players. As such I'll be looking to have this issue addressed.

ThePOGG

Originally posted on the 8th of April

seanysean8
Jul 24, 2014

Hi ThePOGG,

Luckily I took a screenshot of the terms when I signed up to the casino as this is not the first time a casino has tried to pull a fast one. I have attached the screenshot of the terms and have subsequently signed up to your T&C monitoring service which looks like it will be very useful. What is strange is that Term 14 is blank in the screenshot I have provided. I understand this may look suspicious, but I have not tampered with the screenshot. There are other differences between the old terms and the new terms so hopefully this re-assures that I have not tampered with the screenshot.

[EDIT]

Originally posted on the 8th of April

ThePOGG
Jul 24, 2014

Since we closed this complaint in favour of the player this issue has escalated substantially.

At the bottom of this post I'm going to post a full transcript of a conversation with Tobwin's casino manager. Within the conversation the Tobwin manager accepts that the terms were wrong, yet after the conversation goes on to force the player complete the additional wagering anyway.

After the player completes the wagering, Tobwin's manager tells them that they're not wanting to pay until the player gets the negative report on this site taken down. To be clear player's have absolutely no control over the content posted on this site after they submit it. Moreover, as Tobwin did not rectify the issue, instead forcing the player to comply with their erroneous terms, there was nothing invalid about the complaint and no reason to take it down. We consider this blackmail and the casino had no right to withhold the player's funds in the first place.

Nevertheless we removed the complaint on a temporary bases to allow the player to appear to comply with this request with the intention of reposting after the player received their funds. Hardly surprising after the above behaviour but Tobwin still did not pay the player.

While this was going on the player contacted Tobwin's supposed regulator in Curacao only to be informed that the license seal this casino was displaying was fraudulent.

Curacao licenses display on the domain gaminglicenses.com but the Tobwin license displayed on igaminglicenses.com and was a mock up of what a real Curacao license page would look like.

The final piece in this sorry tale would come when we contacted Tobwin's software provider Betsoft about a casino with a fraudulent license offering their games. I have to offer huge kudos to Betsoft for their professionalism and integrity. Within 4 hours of being informed of this issue they had investigated, corroborated the information we'd submitted and pulled Tobwin's access to their real play games (with free play to follow shortly afterwards).

All in all you could not get a more classic picture of a rogue operation and while I'm happy to see this casino down, I'm sorry that we couldn't do more to help the player retrieve their funds.

ThePOGG

ThePOGG

I'm the owner of ThePOGG.com. We've just received a complaint about Tobwin casino from one of the players that uses our site. As one of the main functions of ThePOGG.com is to resolve disputes between players and casinos, we were looking to make contact with the relevant individual to discuss this issue. We provide a private forum where the player, casino rep and site admin can discuss the issue and work towards an amicable solution. As the conversation is carried out in private, once the authorized individual gets in contact I will provide them with log in details so that they can access the complaint.

As with all customer complaint situations, the quicker a representative can be seen to respond to the issue the more likely a positive resolution is.

I look forward to hearing from you and if you have any questions regarding our mediation process, please don't hesitate to get in contact.

ThePOGG

Tobwin

Hi
what complain ?

ThePOGG

Hi there,

The users details are as follows;

Username - [EDIT]
Email - [EDIT]

The complaint (which I've attached in full at the bottom of this email) revolves around the wagering requirement as defined in your terms and conditions. The player has completed the 30xbonus wagering requirement that the terms and conditions stipulate, but has been told that they have to complete 30x(deposit+bonus) as is specifically referenced in point 14 of the Bonus Account Terms and Conditions ("All Wager requirement refer to deposit + bonus (db). Currently the Tobwin terms and conditions contradict this term in several places that make this an extremely problematic position for Tobwin casino to take;

From the Sign-Up bonus terms and conditions page (hxxp://tobwin.com/en/welcome_package);

"A 100% match first-deposit bonus (“First-Deposit Bonus”) on the player’s first real money deposit in the casino for up to a maximum bonus of €200 - Wagering requirements: 40x
A 25% second-deposit bonus (“Second-Deposit Bonus”) on the player’s second real money deposit in the casino, for up to a maximum bonus of €100.- Wagering requirements: 30x
A 50% third-deposit bonus (“Third-Deposit Bonus”) on the player’s third real money deposit in the casino, for up to a maximum bonus of €100. - Wagering requirements: 30x
A 25% fourth-deposit bonus (“Fourth-Deposit Bonus”) on the player’s fourth real money deposit in the casino, for up to a maximum bonus of €100. - Wagering requirements: 30x"

From the general casino terms and conditions page (hxxp://tobwin.com/en/terms.html);

Point 4.1 of the General Promotion Terms and Conditions;

"In the interest of avoiding any confusion related to promotions and any winnings transferred to the Real account, the Player agrees to commit to the following wagering requirements. These include:Doubling up on any game at Tobwin Casino will not count towards your wagering requirements. All Aces Video Poker - please be aware that this game will not count towards wagering requirements and no loyalty points will be earned when playing.
The Player's deposit may be cashed-in, providing any minimum bet requirements associated with redeemed bonuses have been satisfied.
Bonus amounts credited to a Player's bonus account are subject to 30 times play-through before they may be cashed in."

Clearly states "Player's bonus account are subject to 30 times play-through before they may be cashed in". This language stipulates only 30xbonus wagering requirement, though I would concede that it's too vague to be 100% clear. It is however supported by the following term from the Cash Account Terms and Conditions;

"For Players who receive a first deposit or sign up bonus, a minimum of 30 times the bonus balance must be wagered prior to making a withdrawal from their Cash account. Please note, as a Player's bonus balance clears from their bonus account to their cash account the wagering required to withdraw from the cash account will also decrease. For example:
If a Player receives a $100 bonus, they will have to wager approximately $3000 based on a game with 100% wagering contribution (e.g. Slots and Parlor Games) before attempting a withdrawal.
Similarly, they will have to wager $6000 based on a game with a 50% wagering contribution (e.g. Table Poker, Casino War, Sic Bo) and so on."

The above example clearly shows the wagering requirement for the sign-up bonus being calculated on a 30xbonus formula not 30x(deposit+bonus) [see point 1.1 above - 30x100 = $3000].

Alongside the above contradictions of the Bonus Account Terms and Conditions point 14, the player has provided screen shot evidence that is indicative that point 14 of the Bonus Account Terms and Conditions was not added until after the point where the player had accepted the bonus. Their evidence demonstrates a rather short time frame where the term could have been added and still apply to this player, so it would be very helpful if you could clarify exactly when this term was added.

Thanks for your time and I look forward to your response.

ThePOGG

Tobwin

Hi

He need to complete the wagering requirements as in the t&c . Deposit + deposit x30 .

Like we tell him in the emails from our support .

If the t&c are clear enough will ready to replace them.

This player have more than 700 euros in bonuses the only thing we were asking from him is to complete his wagering requirements . He is standing on aroud 5140 an he need to play till 9000 .

Best regards

ThePOGG

Hi,

It's not simply that your terms aren't clear enough, they are flat out wrong! You give an example of how to calculate the wagering requirement and the example uses 30xbonus. No player can be expected to understand that you mean 30x(d+b) when you show them how to calculate the wagering requirement incorrectly. More significant than the mistake itself, the mistake agrees with what is stated elsewhere in the terms and conditions. The short story here is that the casino is wrong and the player is right.

If you want to change your terms and conditions, I'll be happy to help re-write them to ensure that they are consistent, clear and fair, but this player cannot be held to the additional wagering requirement.

It also really concerns me that the rule that's being enforced (30x(d+b)) was clearly added very recently (within weeks of this issue arising that much I can prove via a screenshot that has passed security verification processes to show it was not tampered with), yet the player has been told that the rule was on the terms and conditions page "for a long time" by your casino manager.

Between the recent addition of the term and the conflicting nature of the examples given within the terms there's simply no justification for requiring the player to play the additional wagering.

Thanks and best regards.

ThePOGG

Tobwin

Hi - I'm following up on the conversation we had yesterday regarding the player complaint posted at ThePOGG.com.

I appreciate that this may not have been an instance of intentionally misleading/conflicting terms, but that lack of care has damaged player experience and as the situation currently stands there's simply no way that I could support Tobwin's stance.

If your final decision has been reached, I need you to forward a statement for publication with the complaint report, otherwise I need you to get back to me regarding what action you intend to take.

Thanks

ThePOGG

This is our last attempt to reach Tobwin Casino about this issue. Further lack of response will result in the complaint being marked 'Found for the Player' and Tobwin Casino being listed as 'Not Recommended'.

Hi - I'm following up on the conversation we had last week regarding the player complaint posted at ThePOGG.com.

Tobwin

Comment [Copy of previous email]

ThePOGG

I've already responded to that statement and demonstrated how you are provably and legally wrong. If you want to go forward with a statement that's so easily dismissed as erroneous, I'm happy to accommodate that, but you only damage Tobwin's credibility by doing so.

Your contract at the time the player signed up was inconsistent. In fact the player's interpretation of your terms is far more logically consistent given that "30xbonus" is referenced in several locations throughout your terms, including the example of how to calculate the wagering requirement, than your own interpretation which only appears once, away from the bonus specific terms. When added to that the verified evidence that we have (and will be publishing) showing that this term was added in close proximity to the time of play, Tobwin come off looking very very bad.

And significantly you still haven't fixed the problems with the terms despite having the issue clearly pointed out to you.

The bottom line is that so far you're handling of this issue has been substandard in every respect and if that doesn't change immediately we will be listing you as 'Not Recommended' from this point forward. The point of our mediation service is to provide constructive feedback for both parties - ignoring the issues won't make them go away.

Regards

ThePOGG

Tobwin Manager

"Hi
Since you can provide any evidence of us replacing the terms and condition on our site before and after you hereby request replace the title of the complain ASAP.

Thanks in advance"

ThePOGG

"In this instance I don't feel the title is misleading and the article details exactly what the issues of the case is. And by the way I do have evidence via verified screen shots that you did in fact change your terms.

Sorry, but it won't be changed. You chose this hostile relationship."

Tobwin Manager

"Can you send this screen shot plz"

ThePOGG

"Nameless Tobwin representative, answer a question for me - why should I cooperate with you when you've shown utter contempt for your players, your contracts and my site? I approached you with a completely reasonable complaint, demonstrated where and why you were wrong and you didn't even show the decency to discuss the issue or show basic manners. Now, when I publish a report that reflects that complaint and the actions you took, you suddenly want to talk.

If you want my cooperation you're going to have to make a gesture of good faith. For starters you can go and fix your terms and conditions so that you don't end up screwing over more of your players with deceptive terms. When you've done that I'll be happy to provide you with said screenshot."

Tobwin Manager

"You can leave it like this I just see that you post complan about [EDIT] casino and you still advertise tham on your home page.

So your site is not serious and not reliable and if I saw that I'm sure that all your user to.

Good luck"

ThePOGG

"You represent a casino that can't even write up a correct set of terms and conditions - you'll excuse me I don't take your opinion too seriously."

Tobwin Manager

"Its ok :) i dont think you better then any casino owner . You love money like all ppl even in the price of very big conflict of your site concept.

$ is the winner again.

No hard feeling mate."

ThePOGG

"I hold the highest standards on the web and I've got $150k returned to players and 100s of satisfied players who are happy with the treatment they've received from the casinos I recommend. The one case you raise is a likely fraud case so I've not felt the need to crucify the casino for it. Their ratings were reduced proportionately (Trustworthiness reduced from 8/10 to 6/10). If more similar cases come in I'll act accordingly.

You can question my integrity all you like, but you'd need to have some for your questions to be credible.

What is very telling is that you've admitted there's problems with your terms and conditions, but you've still done nothing to address them. It's honestly beyond me why you haven't just fixed them to help protect yourself from player complaints. At least that would have to be reflected accurately in the report. Of course you're going to end up with players complaining when you can't even give an accurate example of how to calculate your wagering requirements. Your leaving yourself wide open to situations like this."

Tobwin Manager

Okay no problem I agree with you.

I know its a bad timing but I would like to know if you have free spots for us on your home page .

Of course after we change the terms and condition .

Best regards

ThePOGG

Hi - if you're serious about listening to feedback and responding appropriately I'll be happy to help you however I can. I appreciate that we've not got off to the best of starts but at the end of the day as long as the problems get fixed I'm happy.

The mistakes in the terms and conditions would need to be addressed and to be frank I think that steps need to be taken to offer the player a reasonable solution. At the end of the day they are right when they say that the terms they saw were at the very least misleading.

Unlike every other affiliate site I know of, I don't sell space on ThePOGG. The casinos that appear on the homepage do not pay a premium for being there. They are on the homepage because they are the highest rated casinos listed on the site based on geographic location (geotargetting meaning that you see [EDIT] on the homepage where I don't right now as there are 10 higher rated casinos for player from the UK, where I'm accessing the site from). Getting a high rating is as simple a meeting the various rating standards and ensuring that player complaints - if they occur - are approached appropriately.

Simply put, I choose to make less money by not charging for the homepage places to minimise the conflict of interest in advertising casinos and representing players. If I could run the site without taking money from casinos at all I would, but there isn't a workable business model I've been able to find that would allow me to do that.

As such I can't promise you a place on the homepage. What I can do is arrange for a review of Tobwin to be placed and do what I can to help you ensure that you get the best rating possible. It does take time to work up the rankings - new casinos are always rated lower for 6-12 months during the test period - but if you work with me the Tobwin rating will reflect that in the end.

Let me know how/whether you want to move forward.

Lepton
Aug 01, 2014

Fortunately I can make this comment of truth because I'm not white:

Such poor English on the part of the Tobwin manager demonstrates absolute unprofessionalism.

I would have lost my patience with him the moment I saw the "Hi, what complain?"

Politically correct bullcrap aside, not a single reputable, professional casino upper management/PR agent uses absolutely broken English. That's just a simple fact.

And while I can get away with being politically incorrect since once again I'm not white, I'd like to also throw in there that business ethics is NOT the same around the world. People from some parts of the world tend to think scamming is acceptable. Another reason to be suspicious when the operator speaks extremely broken English. Especially if you can identify his accent to be associated with a culture that has patterns of bad business ethics!

ThePOGG
Aug 02, 2014

Hey Lepton,

While I can't and won't comment on quality of the Tobwin manager's English - I've met and conversed with several people in the industry that I consider to be of quality that spoke/wrote less than perfect English, and likewise I've dealt with many English as a first language speakers who have been dodgy or could barely communicate in the written form - the brevity of the initial response showed a complete lack of interest. There was no attempt at maintaining any form of professional decorum in that initial contact and while it's my job to manage that, it did concern me right from the start.

ThePOGG

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