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Hi deorko - welcome to ThePOGG.com!

As we are the ADR for the Genesis Global Limited license under the Malta Gaming Authority license there is certain information we have to provide you now.

You can find all the relevant information about this service here – http://thepogg.com/terms-of-use/ and the terms of use for our complaint service here - https://thepogg.com/terms-of-use-for-dispute-resolution-service/

To summarise.

– Use of this service does not preclude your seeking redress through court proceedings .

– This service is free to use for both the complainant and operator.

– At any point during the procedure the submitting party retains the right to withdraw their complaint. This does not preclude our right to continue the discussion with the involved operator of general issues related to the complaint (i.e. insufficiently clear terms and conditions).

– You are not obliged to obtain independent or legal advice or representation, though you may choose to do so.

If you have any questions about the above, let me know.

Moving on to your case specifically:

The UKGC have no bearing on your complaint. They are solely responsible for UK players and take no position on issues involving non-UK citizens.

I'll contact the operator and see what we can find out for you.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi deorko,

I've discussed this issue with the operator. They inform me that the conversation you reference in your complaint occurred on the 26th of May and that since that point no further play has been allowed on either of your accounts. 

Without having provided the operator any direct reason to believe that you were experiencing issues, they would not be required to close your accounts before this point. 

Did you inform the operator about your addiction issues before the 26th of May?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hello, 
Of course,on the 1st Casino last chat before my "account was closed due to reqiesting self-exclusion" ... in this chat I said my grandapa died so i became kinda depressed of this and I am pretty sure word "suicide" falls in there... after that all their support send me some links to gamble aware sites... when I asked for this transcript,they didnt send me this, only said what is in this topic up there. Anyway.. if u look at their terms, there is once u self-exclude on one site, it ll be aplied on sisters ones.

I really trust this operator is serious company and wont try to circuis his obligations on duty of care. As I said, sometimes system errors or system problem can come in there, but no way to let my last chat on Genesis before closure dissapear

Hi Deorko,

As stated above - the information we have been given is that there was no further play on any of the properties in this group after the conversation on the 26th. Are you contesting this?

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hello, I dont contest this. But conversation I am talking about were earlier, maybe a 2 months before... I would put a chat transcript here, but after my request to send me this they just write to me *Thank you for contacting *Casino 1* with your request.

Why your *Casino 1* has been self excluded is﻿because once you have a self excluded account under *Casino operator*.

You held an account with us on *Casino 2* and this was closed due to a suicide case on the 26th of May. That account will not be reopened again and﻿﻿therefore your account with *Casino 1* will r﻿emain close as well.

This is per license regulations from the UKGC/MGA.* 

where number 1 is Genesis and 2 is Joy.
But chat transcript I requested were not there.

Hello.
I would like to ask u if there are some news.
Thanks for your answer. :-)

Hello :) Would I ask for quick update? Thanks. :)

Actually, maybe we missunderstood each others Dear Pogg. I asked -maybe +- 2 months before 26th May (Casino Joy) - on Genesis Casino to have my account closed there, staff asked me if I have problem with gambling, I admitted this. Thats the point I am talking about.

As I said, I know there was a big failure in Responsible Gaming and I have 100% rights to have money back I trashed on Casino Joy.

I know every staff is human and humans do mistakes and errors. I accept this fact and I am not blaming anyone, but know that right is on my side. 

If Casino will not admit they did mistake and failed my exclusion, Ill contact Authorities where they will have to prove they are right, maybe by chat transcript which I requested and still have not this.

Hi Deorko,

We have had a very long conversation with Casino Joy regarding this issue.

Having reviewed this case in detail it is the opinion of this service that there was sufficient indications given in your interactions with this operator that the operator should have excluded you on Responsible Gambling grounds. 

Before making a ruling we consulted with the Malta Gaming Authority regarding the basic grounds for the ruling and the regulator indicated that they grounds for the ruling sufficient to support the ruling based on what we had shown them.

Having informed Casino Joy of this ruling they have explicitly stated that they will not comply with the ruling given and have insisted that the case be escalated to the MGA for review.

It is our understanding that the ADR system in place under the MGA license does not offer any facility for operators to demand such escalation of complaints to the regulator by either player or operator.

The grounds upon which the operator has refused to respect our ruling is the claim that as they have not yet got round to updating their terms and conditions document to include a complaint policy that is compliant with the MGA license they hold. As far as we can see this is unsupported by the ADR Service Agreement they have signed, which explicitly states that the "Effective Date" for the agreement was the 4th of September 2019 and makes no exclusion for the operator having to update their terms prior to coming into effect. As such we view this defence as illegitimate and - in line with our ADR Service Agreement with the operator - consider our ruling to be legally binding.

This case is found in favour of the Player and it is the opinion of this service that the Player is entitled to a refund of losses after the point where Casino Joy's agents should have acted to close their account.

Given that Casino Joy have stated their intention not to comply with this ruling we would recommend that you contact the MGA regarding this issue. We will likewise be passing further information on to the regulator about this case.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hello. 
Thanks for answer. 
It means ive potencionaly won the case, but Operator refused to follow the decision refund these money right? 
Ive send this case to the MGA and actually said, that ur decision was supported by their decision and u are able to send any documents needed to the final decision. 

Did I understood well? ... This is email Ive written to them. 

*
*
*Hello.
I would like to send u complaint requested to be finished by your complaints team.
Ive made a complaint on THEPOGG(ADR service), The Pogg was investigating my complaint with your assistance with Casino Joy for about 4 months. The result supported by your decision was declined by Casino operator. In the answer of ThePogg was said that their decision would be lawly final, but there was a problem described in this post (complaint).
The fact, that Casino hardly failed their Social Responsibility rules in my case (obvious sighs of gambling problem - ammounts of deposits, canceled withdrawals, declined payments on card and more) is boosted, that after ive read all of your regulations, ive consultating this with my personal lawyer and he said they even hardly went against AML procedure connected with Social responsibility they didnt follow (didnt ask anything after my deposits go over 2k €, didnt react to my sighs of gambling problem) and I PERSONALY take this like really fraudly acting from operators side. In the complaint result of a team THE POGG is written, that after consultating it with ur authority Ive all right to have full refund of losses after the point they brake these rules.

In the fact it was serious case, THE POGG absolutely changed review on this operator.
Both of them - The link on my case and the review - i will send here.
THE POGG team said, they will send every needed documents to the Authority as a proof.

Links:
Complaint: https://thepogg.com/complaint/casino-joy-self-exclusion-duty-of-care-failure/
Review:https://thepogg.com/casino-review/genesis-casino/  -Trustworthiness
              
Thanks.
Best Regards, #####.
*
*
*

Hello. 
Thanks for answer. 
It means ive potencionaly won the case, but Operator refused to follow the decision refund these money right? 
Ive send this case to the MGA and actually said, that ur decision was supported by their decision and u are able to send any documents needed to the final decision. 

Did I understood well? ... This is email Ive written to them. 

*
*
*Hello.
I would like to send u complaint requested to be finished by your complaints team.
Ive made a complaint on THEPOGG(ADR service), The Pogg was investigating my complaint with your assistance with Casino Joy for about 4 months. The result supported by your decision was declined by Casino operator. In the answer of ThePogg was said that their decision would be lawly final, but there was a problem described in this post (complaint).
The fact, that Casino hardly failed their Social Responsibility rules in my case (obvious sighs of gambling problem - ammounts of deposits, canceled withdrawals, declined payments on card and more) is boosted, that after ive read all of your regulations, ive consultating this with my personal lawyer and he said they even hardly went against AML procedure connected with Social responsibility they didnt follow (didnt ask anything after my deposits go over 2k €, didnt react to my sighs of gambling problem) and I PERSONALY take this like really fraudly acting from operators side. In the complaint result of a team THE POGG is written, that after consultating it with ur authority Ive all right to have full refund of losses after the point they brake these rules.

In the fact it was serious case, THE POGG absolutely changed review on this operator.
Both of them - The link on my case and the review - i will send here.
THE POGG team said, they will send every needed documents to the Authority as a proof.

Links:
Complaint: *LINK*
Review:*LINK*  -Trustworthiness
              
Thanks.
Best Regards, #####.
*
*
*

Hi Deorko,

It means that <strong>in our opinion</strong> Casino Joy failed to meet their license required obligations in your case.

To be clear - we consulted on specific aspects of your case in a general manner with the regulator. The regulator were not provided the full case files or details of your identity/claim or the identity of the licensee prior to our ruling being given. However it is our understanding, based on the regulator's feedback on one specific interaction that you had with Casino Joy support staff that this interaction was sever enough in nature that the regulator's expectation would have been that the operator would close your account on a responsible gambling basis.

Beyond that we cannot offer comment.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Thanks for answer.
Can I know which interaction it was? For future steps ill do with MGA.
Thanks.

Hello.
I want to give an update on my case. 
On 20.2.2020 Ive send complaint to MGA, since that ive calling Malta Gaming authority few times, last week I was calling them for some informations. They told me, they requested documents for operator and will contact me with result. 

Ive few questions. 
1) ive read that every ADR result is binding for operator and operator should not refer player to contact authority, it that true? 
2) casino told u, that they have not signed "contract" between you and them, but complaints after mine with this operator they were solving without problem? How is that?
3)is there chance that MGA will decline the result of you and wont refund money ive right for?

Thank you.

The player's interactions with Casino Joy should have raised sufficient enough concerns to justify closing the account.

Hello there.
 
 Firstly I was to say, that addiction is illness, which can come from nowhere, like a flue, need to be prevented and obviously there are laws of protection vulnerable customers from﻿ it.
 
 I would like to ask u, what now? Firstly I want to say, that best option for me is to solve this between me and Casino, but actualy Casinos complaints team was not able to respond me to my question after a month waiting. Instead of this s﻿end me another response, which is proof too. ﻿﻿
 
 How to start my story... I had not easy life,my dad lef﻿t us when I was 4, so we were alone with mom... after depresion issue my mom died when I was 14 ... since that I was living with my grandparents, honestly I was fixed on them.Few months ago my grandpa died and I fall in hard depresions ... So i started to gamble to just "fill my head" ... ive to admit that is so easy to fa﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿ll﻿ in addiction... after I deposit bunch of money and won,wanted withdrawal, we were out with friend..drinking u know... there someone stoled my phone, paradoxly we were on bear outside of casino... when I came home I noticed this and have written to support if there is something to do if I get police protocol and all documents they will need. Answer was there is nothing to﻿ do... I just accepted this and asked them to close my account where the adding question from support site was If I feel I got problem with gamble, where I responded that maybe yes. Word *Suicide* figured out there too. Everything was ok, he send me some sited for problem gamblers and upon next day when I tried to log in, message told me that due my request of self-exclusion my account was closed... In this time I was going only for 1 game -﻿&gt; Chilli ... only 2 sites allowed this in my local so i played on the 2n﻿d... I Lost a lot ... I was talking on phone with VIP support from there so we were talking about my problem...word *Suicide* were po﻿inted here aswell and he told me because of this he has to self-exclude me.
 
 Ive Lost over 34k Dollars in 1-2 months... sadly no-one asked anything about money I deposit or if my gambling is not﻿dangerous for me.﻿
 
 Ive Lost my job, because I became so depressed by this... I visited a lot of ppl who talked with me...
 
  ﻿
 
 One day I was looking to my bank account ( these money was loan to reconstruction) and calculated. Find out these 2 Casinos are operated by same Operator. In Terms on the 1st one ive read that self-exclusion affects all brand under this operator (I didnt change any details, same name,adress,DOB,email,phone, Card too). Plus Casinos, as I said, has obligation to protect vulnerable customers. Ive read a lot of articles and noticed, that Operatos has already sued for failing on protection vulnerable customers and﻿ self-excluded people.
 
 So I decided to dont Let it be, asked 1st one in support chat f﻿or chat transcript before my account was self-excluded and they told me to write on complaints and they will respond me within 2﻿0 days (it was actually over month). They didnt send me script I requested but send me a text.
 
 Thank you for contacting *Casino 1* with your request.
 
 Why your *Casino 1* has been self excluded is﻿because once you have a self excluded account under *Casino operator*.
 
 You held an account with us on *Casino 2* and this was closed due to a suicide case on the 26th of May. That account will not be reopened again and﻿﻿therefore your account with *Casino 1* will r﻿emain close as well.
 
 This is per license regulations from the UKGC/MGA.
 
 As I said. I would like to solve this without taking the case on UKGC, because actually I know that I have right to have money refunded but have faith tha﻿t Casino didnt take advantage of my problem and it was only some error.
 
 Than﻿ks ﻿﻿
 
 

Casino Joy - Self-Exclusion/Duty of Care failure

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